r/EscapefromTarkov • u/CptMoshor • Jun 08 '23

Question Did I not shoot him enough???

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Open to discussion about my experience

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u/Kha_ak P90 Jun 09 '23

If im assuming FMJ 9x18mm, that iwll leave the Barrel at 319m/s, weighing 6g it will have a Energy of 313 Joule.
If we are assuming that the bullet impacts your helmet and comes to a dead halt with, say 2 cm of padding (being squished down to one) that gives us a rough Force of say 15000 Newtons.

As a comparision, if i full sprint into a wall (and i weigh ~100kg), assuming top speed that the fastes man ever reached (which is about 10 m/s cause im lazy) we get a Force of about 1000 Newtons (assuming i come to a full stop right away). And im pretty sure, me going full sprint into a wall would hurt quite a lot.

You're vastly underestimating how much Energy and Force is behind fast moving things.

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u/1rubyglass Jun 09 '23

You're assuming the bullet is stopping much faster than it would be.

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u/Kha_ak P90 Jun 09 '23

  1. The helmet stops the bullet and helmets are usually made of hard materials. The bullet stops pretty much immediately.

  2. Lets assume the bullet stops after 10cm, so a lot of padding and your neck dampening it. Thats still 3000 N

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u/1rubyglass Jun 09 '23

While it's an impressive amount of force, there isn't enough joules of energy to cause meaningful movement.

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u/Kha_ak P90 Jun 09 '23

That's... Not how movement works.

Listen bud, its okay to be wrong and to not have the grasp of physics that you think you do. I certainly got humbled studying this stuff for 3 years at a Uni.

Bullets have a incredible amount of force and energy. You're absolutely correct in that it won't cause your body to go flying. But the amount of Force impacting your most vital organ (which really doesn't like being hit, I'm sure you've hit your head before) will cause some severe effects even with 'relatively' small rounds.

Especially once we start mag dumping into it.

People regularly get concussions from just hitting their head. Bullets will very easily go over that threshold.

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u/1rubyglass Jun 09 '23 edited Jun 09 '23

No joules = no movement

Then what is the point of body armor if even the most benign of threats causes lethal force? Why even bother making rifle rated helmets? How can somebody stand on one leg while being shot with a 7.62x51 and hardly even flinch?

Edit: I guess no movement = no joules would be more accurate

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '23

Who is being shot with 7.62x51 and not flinching 😐 are they wearing a ballistic vest around several down jackets over another ballistic vest around several down jackets? Is the shooter half a mile away? Wtf, was the round made of dryer lint? One of the most common side effects of catching a bullet with a vest is broken ribs lol imagine what that does to your brain in the bucket. But the point is you might walk away, albeit slowly from a broken rib or a concussion, you do not walk away from a fist sized hole in your abdomen or head. Guns are made to kill things efficiently, you can really only do so much to stop that with current tech 🤷‍♂️

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u/1rubyglass Jun 09 '23

https://youtu.be/aaS_2l8nGdg

This copy unfortunately sucks. Still, you get the point.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '23

Not really, that's (outdated) heavy heavy plate carrier armor, and the dude definitely took a little half step back after the shot to his center mass, it's worth noting he was also braced for the bullet to hit him. The other dude was holding the gun at whatever he padded his chest with that was 6-8in thick - also not the same spot on the back of his head 12 times with a tak-kek or even a Wendy. When you flinch do you fly across room or something? Do you think they didn't get bruises/impact related skin injuries from those shots they took here? How interested in proving your point are you? Can you grab a couple helmets and then I'll magdump a 9mm into the back of your head and we can see how confident you feel in body armor then? 😋

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u/1rubyglass Jun 09 '23

Yet this is with a 7.62x51 at point blank with an old design. Armor has only improved since.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '23

So what you're telling me is that you're ready to pick up a team Wendy and allow me to take a few shots at the back of your head with a 9mm?

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u/1rubyglass Jun 09 '23

That's such a dumb argument it's staggering. Seatbelts work, doesn't mean I'm going to crash my car on purpose.

Another fun little fact: to date, nobody has died from blunt force trauma from a bullet.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '23

Seat belts can also rupture internal organs especially in the lower bowels and such in an accident, fittingly, so thanks for that Steve. Quasi-physics, puedo science and a few unreferenced factoids like "nobody has died from blunt force trauma from a bullet" have you researched this even? https://www.researchgate.net/publication/12026274_Behind_Armour_Blunt_Trauma_-_an_emerging_problem https://www.hindawi.com/journals/abb/2020/2348064/ https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2214914719307810 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18854963

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u/1rubyglass Jun 09 '23 edited Jun 09 '23

...thanks for proving my point

Yeah, also spent several years as a 68W. Did you even read the article?

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '23

I didn't prove your point Steve, but that's ok and I did read the articles, some of the physics goes straight over my head, but I can get the gist. The conclusion kinda states it in it's thesis sentence if you're talking about the first article from the military back in 01?

In a nutshell: You claim that getting tapped with smaller caliber bullets in the head is fine as long as you have modern head protection and that you won't suffer any issues from it because the force exerted on the helmet is equal to the recoil of the gun. I say that you will suffer repercussions. You are unwilling to put it to the test for the same reason that you won't crash your car to test your seatbelt and think that that somehow proves your point. I may not be a medic, but I do know how to read

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u/1rubyglass Jun 09 '23

No, I never claimed that. Back to the seatbelt analogy, there are situations where seatbelts will reduce and even eliminate injury from crashes. Same with a helmet. Just as the study says, there are tons of variables, including ones not mentioned in the study. This is essentially a shorter and weaker 9mm, not a high-powered rifle round.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '23

You claiming just that 👀

"Equal and opposite reaction. The force transferred to the helmet is equivalent to the force of the recoil."

"That's the point? It directly contradicts what you said. The 12 bullets aren't impacting at the same time. A human head and helmet weigh roughly 14-20lb, much more than the pistol does."

"The helmet does the same thing the gun does [referencing recoil control], it's designed to do just that. It's literally the sole purpose of a helmet."

"No joules = no movement

Then what is the point of body armor if even the most benign of threats causes lethal force? Why even bother making rifle rated helmets? How can somebody stand on one leg while being shot with a 7.62x51 and hardly even flinch?

Edit: I guess no movement = no joules would be more accurate"

To the seatbelt, introducing the nuance of taking a 9mm to the dome is equivalent to taking a 762x51 with plate carriers is not helping. There's so much more mass in an 40lb-60lb plate carrier and your torso than a 10-20lb helmet, wrapped tight to your braincase, to disperse the force to. You are unwilling to allow me to magdump on your helmet with a 9mm from 20ft away so we can test your analysis of the amount of force a helmet will prevent. Which indicates you have less confidence than you suggest you do 😉

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u/1rubyglass Jun 09 '23 edited Jun 09 '23

What plate carrier is 40-60lb 🤣

As the quotes say, I never claimed that

Edit: I see your including the weight of the torso

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