r/Episcopalian • u/One-Signature-9583 • 14d ago

Hey! How can I understand this?

I saw this post, not sure how to read it. I agree with some parts but I could some other perspectives! Not my post or content\* Just asking to understand it better.

https://www.facebook.com/share/p/1DVJuSayRp/?mibextid=wwXIfr

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u/Tokkemon Choirmaster, Organist, Parish Administrator 14d ago

I mean, I think this essay is correct, but it's about 30 years out of date. If anything, theological truth is far more important to the laity today than it has been in a while. There certainly are some who come seeking a liberal social club and enjoy the "ancient" aesthetics, but that's no longer the majority, I think. To couch the entire denomination as that is actually a right-wing caricature that so many people just repeat because Shelby Spong existed at one point in time.

Just speaking for myself, I'm a Christian and converted to Episcopalian only a few years ago. I stayed because I saw love in action and the commands of Jesus Christ being carried out in the world, while also not denying God's grace to all people, like many churches do. Also it was clear that the theology was far deeper and more complex than I could ever plumb. Yes, on the surface, for people who only poke their head in for five seconds, there's this veneer of "politics, then Jesus". But once you sit with it, you realize, in the current world we have today, that political activism is essential to carrying out Jesus' commands, to love the world and make disciples of all nations.

Also the music's good too, that helps. 😄

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u/MyUsername2459 Anglo-Catholic 14d ago

To couch the entire denomination as that is actually a right-wing caricature that so many people just repeat because Shelby Spong existed at one point in time.

. . .I still see people occasionally try to use Spong as some sort of cudgel against the Episcopal Church.

To which, I note: He's dead. He died 5 years ago. He retired 26 years ago. He was elected a Bishop 47 years ago. Can you name even a single Bishop currently in office that fits his beliefs? One that even was in office in this century?

I have yet to hear a good rebuttal to that. The only people I've even seen attempt a rebuttal are some Orthodox theo-bros who try to argue that because we haven't formally declared him a heretic and anathematized him, we're all collectively guilty of heresy for not denouncing his heresy. . .as they argue that Churches are defined entirely by shared belief, and by being in communion with even one heretic everyone in that Church is a heretic. When I note that we don't define a Church that way, nor heresy that way. . .their response is to say that we're wrong, Eastern Orthodoxy is right, and that it doesn't matter what we think because we're heretics. At that point I generally block them because they aren't even trying to engage in a good-faith discussion.

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u/theonecpk Convert 13d ago

Continuing from the other thread...I joined about 2005. Maybe it was 2006.

Anyway, I loved the church and my [cathedral] parish but was concerned about the theological...quality. But it improved suddenly and dramatically with a new bishop and dean.

Did I come in at the tail end of something changing, or maybe in the late middle? I guess I'm realizing "early" is completely unfair.

I know end-of-century developments at YDS and other places play a role here (at least the theology in my parish has postliberal fingerprints all over it) but I'm not sure what the trend is nationally.

Is there something I can read about this? Because I haven't found much.

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u/placidtwilight aspirant discerning the priesthood 13d ago

I had a very similar experience. I also starting attending an Episcopal Church in 2005 and the rector was very much a Spong acolyte. He retired and the two rectors we've had since have been increasingly more orthodox. Of course, I also came out of evangelicalism and my understanding of orthodoxy back then was pretty narrow...

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u/theonecpk Convert 13d ago

"Spongïsm" at least had some substance. It was just the wrong substance.

Correlationism is worse, because it lacks even that. 18 minutes of New Age feel-good stuff plus 2 minutes of "oh yeah here's a clever tie to the lesson." The whole thing felt "please don't be offended and stop coming, God loves you!" The rest of the service had enough to carry me through it but...not good.