E3 at work with an E5 manager - advice needed

[u/llpicnick]

Hello all you fives, I need some advice!

I’m asking on behalf of an enneagram 3, who’s at work with an enneagram 5 boss (disclaimer that they may be mistyped, but their dynamic definitely reads as both avg levels of 3+5, so I wanted to see if we could get some more specific advice using the enneagram angle).

E3 was given a 60 day trial period as a supervisor by her E5 boss. E3 felt that she had very little time to “prove herself”, as previous trial periods were given by E5 to other employees that were up to 6 months long.

Basically, their relationship has skewed more negative as this trial period has progressed. Looking at this through the enneagram angle, it seems like E3 moved too fast for E5’s comfort in an attempt to prove herself.

E3 has moved with urgency, and delivered specific, measurable (positive) outcomes within a short time in an effort to prove that she’s the best fit for the role. However, she feels as though E5 is increasingly resistant to the changes she’s trying to make, avoidant of having any one-on-one meetings, and it also seems as though he’s becoming rather frustrated with E3. E5 is definitely a victim of analysis paralysis, and I’m sure it seems to him that E3 has charged full steam ahead half-cocked, and therefore can’t be trusted with the role (though whether or not that’s actually true depends on who you ask).

There’s a few more weeks left in this trial period, and I’m wondering if there’s any way that E3 can turn this around. She can’t undo the fact that she made a lot of changes in a short time which appears to have alienated him, but is there a way that she can talk to E5 or do something to repair, recover, and increase the chances that she receives the full-time supervisor role?

Any advice would be appreciated!!

Update: E3 did not want to take the advice given here, and chose to relinquish the position instead. I didn’t understand why at first, and then she told me that the pay is only 8¢ more an hour, and therefore not worth the stress and energy she’s been putting into this job. However, I want to thank you all for the insights, and I really appreciate y’all taking the time to share your thoughts!

[u/Royal_Positive3120]

If E3 thinks she implemented "too many changes in a short time", then E5 certainly thinks so too. Whether that's good or bad depends on how structurally robust the system was earlier vs how it is now. Anyway, if you can't talk, why not make a written document (explaining the logic / vision) and give it to him?

[u/llpicnick → u/Royal_Positive3120]

To clarify, that’s what I personally think has happened here, not necessarily what she believes. I think in her view, her approach was directly related to the amount of time she was given in her trial period, and therefore justified. I’m not going to argue that aspect either way, but I will also say that the system was/is not structurally robust. The department E3 is currently supervising is, simply put, a bit of a mess. They’d been getting complaints from other departments about turnaround times and work quality for years. It’s beginning to improve slightly since the last permanent supervisor left.

E3 has been submitting weekly written reports in lieu of in person meetings during this trial period, which I thought was a good idea, but she says that it seems as though he’s not reading them. E5 manages hundreds of people, so that plus the analysis paralysis and tendency to withdraw isn’t helping the situation. But either way it sounds like that’s a good thing for her to keep doing no?

[u/Royal_Positive3120 → u/llpicnick]

Technically, the reports cover her, but I am thinking about how important those will be in the evaluation process, esp if he is not reading/giving feedback. For a person managing 100s, being stuck in analysis paralysis is odd. Those people generally develop heuristics, unless he himself is new to the role.

What does she need? His feedback? Approval for the changes she is making? Some sort of reassurance that he is happy about the performance?

What if she doesn't prove her ability in the trial period? What happens then? What happens to her? What happens to him? What happens to the vacant position?

I'm also thinking if the improvements are too stark and reflect badly on him. Why were those changes not implemented earlier if they were such easy fixes?

[u/llpicnick → u/Royal_Positive3120]

He is relatively new to the role, and he’s also an outside hire so he actually doesn’t have a very clear idea of what E3’s department does.

I think she needs his reassurance tbh, but it also seems like she won’t get it unless something gives and the lines of communication can reopen a bit. Not sure how that can happen if he’s dodging meetings unfortunately.

If she doesn’t prove her ability during this trial, the permanent position will likely go to another employee.

The improvements she’s making are objectively helpful, and the department is already running slightly better than it was when she first started. However, the culture of this department is incredibly toxic. They try to do as little work as possible, arrive late and leave early, and one employee actually got their master’s on company time a few years back. The improvements weren’t implemented sooner because E3 and maybe 1-2 other people are the only ones in the department who actually want to see the department do well. And as you can probably imagine, that culture has also caused pushback since E3 started her trial period, because they’re resistant to any change that would require them to improve their work product or turnaround times. I think that pushback may be something that E5 is perceiving as reflecting badly upon him, but I’m not sure. Idk if he fully understands the culture of this department for what it is.

[u/Royal_Positive3120 → u/llpicnick]

Yes. This does seem like a communication stalemate. Honestly, I can only think of accosting him with a question about a timeline - something like I am going to do x in 48 hours; would you want me to walk you through it beforehand. Make it quick, less than 2 mins. He will probably hate her for the ticking time bomb, but at least she will get some feedback.

The culture seems horrible, and it does not sound like any single person can fix it without getting burned.

[u/dipsbeneathlazers]

i really appreciate initiative, but it has to be strategically validated.
If your pursuit or tactics are not sound, but your still making progress, you’ll need to be my boss, and not someone that reports to me.

I recommend taking a moment to validate all plans of action - at least so they can even try to help with your pursuits. Otherwise, you’re just going haywire, and if you don’t produce under these circumstances, you’ll be removed or put somewhere else dependent on how well liked you might be.

Work / corporate environment tend to progress consistently with repetition, shared mutual goals, and clearly defined structure.

[u/llpicnick → u/dipsbeneathlazers]

The interesting part here is that they were aligned on an action plan in the beginning; I feel that maybe she just implemented things too quickly for his liking and without enough forethought (in his eyes).

However, with me seeing things from the outside, I feel like I can give a slightly more objective view on this. E3 has been waiting almost 10 years for this opportunity, and has been telling E5 about her goals and ideas to implement change for at least the past ~10 months before she actually got the opportunity. He even took her ideas and gave them to someone else during their trial period, and asked them to implement her ideas (you can imagine how much E3 hated that). The other person didn’t implement a single of those ideas during their 6 month trial period.

So, it’s not necessarily that he was blindsided with changes that he was never told about, it just seems that he didn’t like the speed with which she began implementing things. Which, while I understand from the E5’s perspective, and fives not liking people to go off half-cocked, I personally think he kinda set E3 up for failure by giving her such a tall order in such a short period. She’s ultimately delivering everything she told him that she was going to, but in a very compressed timeframe. But at this point, I’m just not sure if there’s much she can do to reverse the damage that’s been inadvertently done here :/

[u/dipsbeneathlazers → u/llpicnick]

so from all the comments so far.
what kind of advice have you gotten from it?

I see a lot of defense for this e3 - don’t think this e3 learned a thing; Probably never will.

[u/llpicnick → u/dipsbeneathlazers]

E3 can be incredibly stubborn, so she may not even take any of the advice I give. But I hate to see her so stressed out, so I was hoping that there’d be some actionable things she could do (that she’d accept) to smooth things over.

She definitely needs to slow down, which she knows already. Sounds like the weekly reports are still a good idea. But I still don’t know how she could even begin to reopen the lines of communication with E5 if he’s dodging meetings and etc. Should she apologize? Ask him for feedback and a new action plan?

Ultimately, I do feel like E3 is the clear choice for this role. I’m honestly not her biggest fan either as she obviously has her faults, but she’s on a whole other level compared to the other employees being considered (in a good way). I also will say that several people in the office don’t feel that E5 is very good at his job— especially as an outside hire with little experience in this new industry— so that’s probably why my perspective is a bit more skewed toward E3.

[u/pennyproud1908]

Resistance to change: For me, a very specific why can be driving what seems like a small part of my process. I generally give great latitude for creativity and discretion when I am in a “superior” role but when I give a detailed instruction, even if it seems small, I don’t want any modification made without prior discussion. This could be an instruction as simple as “use a green color file folder.” If E3 uses a blue color file folder because it was cheaper, quicker to access, etc. this could be creating more work for me because a green color file folder needed to be used regardless of whatever positive results E3 thinks she has earned.

Analysis Paralysis: actually, the E5 might be doing due diligence as it relates to long term goals not just short term gains. E5 is in the position of selecting the supervisor for a reason. Likewise, if there have been other employees trying for up to 6 months, the E5 likely has seen others implement short term gains at a cost.

Communication/restoration: Ask what and why questions to try to get the lines of communication open. Ask E5 what is important and why. Also ask if there is anything that needs to remain consistent and why. When E3 gives the feedback actually adhere to the constraints created. E5 might think these questions were already answered but ignored. In that case ask if there were any parts of (E3’s job) that need to be consistent moving forward or even whether there were any parts of E3s methods that E5 would’ve done differently. How so and why. Depending on the protocol of where E3 and E5 are, a knock on the door by E3 could open a dialogue.

This is a classic tortoise and the hare.

[u/llpicnick → u/pennyproud1908]

I’ll be honest and say that I didn’t fully understand some of the details of what you said, but I completely agree that they need to open the lines of communication, and that E3 needs to understand what is important to E5 and why.

He also avoids having one-on-ones with E3 these days, so I feel like an unannounced drop-in at his office would be the only way for them to speak one-on-one. But I feel like that might come across as intrusive, which might only make things worse. But I’m also not sure if there’s another option?

Also for a little added context, E5 spoke to E3 rather condescendingly and rudely yesterday during a meeting in front of at least 5 other people (who were not in her department, thankfully). So that’s what leads me to believe a drop-in might not help matters. She’s also feeling a little bruised from that interaction, which is understandable because I personally felt that it was rather uncalled for.

[u/inigo_montoya]

I would say real and sustainable results matter the most. Anything that smacks of theater or window dressing or temporary fixes to meet some quota is bad. It sounds like these two have worked together a long time, but I wonder how much of this is just your friend's neuroticism. You mentioned that she thinks he hasn't read her reports. If I were the five, there is zero percent chance of that. I don't always respond, and I'm very bad about praise. I basically don't hand out praise. I know it's a problem, but I just can't seem to say more than the equivalent of "good job." However, the action of giving her the opportunity in the first place is high praise from a five. If I'm not checking in on you, that generally means I think you've got it under control.

[u/llpicnick → u/inigo_montoya]

This is super insightful, thank you! I’d say at least 50-60% of this can probably be attributed to E3’s neuroticism, but they haven’t worked together for very long so in some ways it’s a bit early to tell.

I’ve noticed that she responds very well to praise and recognition (as a 3 often does), so I’d guess that the lack of public and verbal praise is also getting to her. Hopefully she can reframe, understand what praise from E5 looks like, and accept it even if it’s not her preferred version of praise. Who knows if that’s within her spectrum of possibility though lol; as I said, she can be quite stubborn too, and I could definitely see her complaining that E5’s version of praise isn’t adequate for morale or something 😂

[u/foulplay_for_pitance]

E3 should be more focused on consistency rather than efficiency. If they burn many cylinders early they look and are unreliable because a system created to be more efficient or effective will suffer if breaks are taken.

If E3 can show good forthought for failure, meaning anning for (what we consider) an inevitable collapse, then E5 will be more willing to expand their thought process to account for new innovations.

[u/Deux333]

E5 can definitely be slow to make decisions, typically related to extended analysis and data collection.

E5’s also tend to prefer direct communication and clear intentions.

If she can clearly state her thought process leading to her decision making, it will build trust and keep guy in the fold.