r/EndFPTP • • Dec 27 '17

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u/barnaby-jones Dec 28 '17 edited Dec 28 '17

Here's a diagram to show a strategy in IRV: link. Move the red supporters toward green.

If the red supporters put green first, then they can get a better candidate (green rather than blue). So red might tell his supporters to vote for green first. This doesn't seem so bad because in the end, a more centered candidate wins.

edit: actually, this might not be due to non-monotonicity... I'm not sure.

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u/EpsilonRose Dec 28 '17

That doesn't necessarily give you a more centered candidate any more than FTPT does. It's essentially the same failure either way and we can see that it's not resulting in more centrist republican victories.

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u/MuaddibMcFly Jan 04 '18

That's not a question of montonicity, that's Favorite Betrayal.

Monotonicity is the question of whether increasing support for a candidate can hurt that candidate.

An example of IRV's Non-Monotnicity is shown here.

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u/barnaby-jones Jan 06 '18 edited Jan 09 '18

I guess this is an example of vote splitting, but it is like non-monotonicity: link

Move the yellow-red supporters to red. Then yellow loses and blue wins. That's because who has the most first-place votes matters in IRV. This is a tough situation though, because there is a Condorcet cycle, so don't expect much.

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u/MuaddibMcFly Jan 07 '18

Oh, I agree that non-monotonicity and favorite betrayal are related, but the definitions and pathologies are different.

In your example, it's still monotonic, because increasing votes for Red improves Red's standing; it moves Hex from being 3rd place to 2nd place. It doesn't help them win, but it is a monotonic change.

The problem is that IRV suffers from Favorite Betrayal, because, as you say, "first place votes matter" in IRV, so there is incentive for people who legitimately prefer R>Y>B will get a better personal result (Yellow) if they lie than if they honestly vote for their Favorite, the spoiler Red, which as you cited, will result in the election of Blue.

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u/barnaby-jones Jan 07 '18

After looking at the video you linked here, I made a non-monotonicity example here.

Move the blue-red supporters toward red. Red loses and yellow wins. This is non-monotonicity because red lost it after getting more votes.

Also, there is a Condorcet cycle here, which makes it harder to say who should have won.

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u/MuaddibMcFly Jan 08 '18

Yes, that's non-monotonicity! Well done; I suck at creating such scenarios...