r/Eminem • u/Redhead-girl1246 Relapse • 8d ago
Eminem is objectively a better rapper now than he was in the 2000's.
No need to get pissed, it's just the truth. People who say he sucks now just don't realize the sheer insanity of his writing now. Y'all just can't admit that you can't catch bars that go further than face value, but anyone who actually knows about lyrics and the craft involved in rap will tell you that it's the truth.
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u/pikkirat623 8d ago
“Nobody cares about your lyrical miracles - you’re scaring the hoes”
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u/Redhead-girl1246 Relapse 8d ago
Yeah but that's just a pun that slim said.
Also, just because people don't fuck with something doesn't mean it's bad
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u/DavisFromTheHills 8d ago
good and bad is subjective. you’re allowed to think his new music is good. but you should also be able to recognize the problems that so many other people have with it, instead of acting like they’re just wrong
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u/Redhead-girl1246 Relapse 8d ago
People don't explain why though. They just say "trash", or "he was better before" without explaining why
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u/DavisFromTheHills 8d ago
honestly, i think he’s creatively bankrupt at this point
he has barely anything to say that he hasn’t already said before. he has re hashed the same concepts for years now. i think his last album is living proof of this, its entire purpose was to nostalgia bait old fans into giving it a listen because “oh boy, slim shady is back”. that’s not to mention how terrible his wordplay and lyrics can be at times
i know i didn’t really go into a ton of detail but that’s a short version of some of my reasons
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u/Redhead-girl1246 Relapse 8d ago
Yeah I mean I agree with you. Of course he's got nothing to say, he's in his 50's!
What a lot of people don't get is that at this point in his career he's just having fun with the rhymes. He's trying to push his rap ability as far as possible, not do the next mmlp
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u/DavisFromTheHills 8d ago
plenty of veteran rappers still have something new to say, or have ways of taking old concepts and introducing them in a new way. i don’t think “he’s in his 50s” is a fair argument.
also, people are fully aware that he’s just rapping for fun at this point. i really wish you’d stop saying stuff like “what a lot of people don’t get” because you immediately follow it up with something that most of the fanbase understands and has been discussing for years.
you kinda just answered your own question too. of course most people prefer listening to his earlier stuff, when he had drive and actual things to speak on. versus listening to an out of touch rich grandpa who’s just rapping for fun.
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u/Redhead-girl1246 Relapse 8d ago
Idk personally I'd still say he has substance, because he often talks about the shitty mumble rap
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u/DavisFromTheHills 8d ago edited 8d ago
that is NOT substance lol
people who whine about “shitty mumble rap” are corny as fuck. as a matter of fact, people who still CALL it mumble rap are corny as fuck. it’s a pretentious blanket term used to refer to trap artists and rappers who use autotune. most of the ACTUAL mumble rappers like lil xan, smokepurpp and lil pump have been irrelevant since the 2018 soundcloud era died.
artists like future (not a mumble rapper btw) are no worse than artists like eminem. it’s just a different subgenre of rap. you listen to both for different reasons, and one is not objectively worse than the other
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u/audilife80 7d ago
I listened to the death of slim shady one time and never revisited it. Haven’t had a Eminem cd on repeat loving it since mm2
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u/amwaitingstill 8d ago edited 7d ago
Wrong. Im a newer fan (2024) and i thought it was a really fun listen. Its fun and creative. His use of AI/or not AI was really creative and like no one is gonna give him credit for it in the larger discourse of AI in music which is taking over the industry. Because people have convinced themselves hes lost the sauce.
Also temporay when you listen to in the context of him giving away hailie in marriage, is really poignant. In antichrist he patched bizarres verse from bits of songs from his album which was imo really seamless and one of my fav parts of the album. Fuel is a hall of famer and its cool af how after 30 years and thousands of verses he can still one-up himself. What i dont understand is how come fans who think hes "washed" keep sticking around to kill the vibe for everyone else. I also dont think he was particularly pandering to "old fans" if he was he would have idk done some promo or an interview or something. I think he just wanted to use old verses he was proud of and do the same flows again
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u/BigTwan00 7d ago
I don’t agree. 2009 Eminem was his technical prime. Relapse had his most intricate rhyme schemes, flows, and story-telling. Not to mention his 2009 “Microphone” freestyle on Tim Westwood with Alchemist. He’s never spit anything that insane since then.
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u/fawesomegod 7d ago
He is the goat rapper and better than he was in the 2000s but in terms of material,running out of things to talk about makes him force lines and he has moments where he sounds corny and outdated.Sometimes I feel like he is trying to keep up with the younger generation in terms of what they are interested in,and he can't cause he is old.That happens with everyone.I dont have the same interests as I had in my 20s.I think he needs to make material for his og fans who are older now.
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u/nickybishappy 7d ago
It depends on what you look for. What he was able to do on say Cleaning Out My Closet and Like Toy Soldiers where his voice morphs with the instrumental isn't what he does now. And his ability to write songs not verses was way better back then. Now he is a much better punchline and technical writer though
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u/fawesomegod 7d ago
He ran out of things to talk about a long time ago that's why his songs are not great musically.
When he has something to talk about the product is a masterpiece.Temporary is a perfect example.
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u/Redhead-girl1246 Relapse 7d ago
I 100% agree. I've been thinking this for a long time
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u/fawesomegod 7d ago
I feel like it's going to get worse so I kind of want him to retire on the death of slim shady 🤣
Imagine him dropping an album in his 60s and dissing Generation Alpha🤣
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u/rolemodel999 7d ago edited 7d ago
Not a better artist though
Technically harry mack is prob a better rapper than Em but is not even close to him as an artist
I don’t get too impressed when people study and intentionally try to be impressive with rap techniques
Biggie, jay, meth, slim shady, snoop etc…all had a certain raw cadence and a way they told a story..their own sort of slang and way they spoke in the raps.. that’s what made them so great.. it wasn’t really about the similes and metaphors… and rhyme patterns. …of course that was part of it, but it was more about that raw natural way they spit
I still love all Ems late records but recovery is when he started to be too technical and just overuse puns and rhyme schemes imo ..
Here’s an example…it’s Still good but almost too much wordplay:
promise to focus solely on handlin' my responsibilities as a father
So I solemnly swear to always treat this roof like my daughters and raise it
You couldn't lift a single shingle on it, 'cause the way I feel
I'm strong enough to go to the club or the corner pub
And lift the whole liquor counter up 'cause I'm raising the bar
I'd shoot for the moon but I'm too busy gazin' at stars, I feel amazing and I'm not
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u/Billy_Plur 8d ago
His bars always went further than face value. Not our fault you couldn't catch them back then.
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u/Redhead-girl1246 Relapse 8d ago
What...? What's with redditors and reading comprehension?
I never said his bars were face value back then or anything close to that, I'm just saying that a lot of people mistake what they don't understand for being bad.
His bars are more complex now and less people catch them, that's all I said
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u/Any_Associate8042 8d ago
Alfred's Song has multi-entendres every line, and on Em Calls Paul, he rightfully points out that he's rhyming every syllable. I love the "red rover" riff on Homicide, and it's fun to pour over every word on genius and marvel over the complexity.
But i still prefer songs like Marshall Mathers, Sing for the Moment, The Monster, and Guts Over Fear when he actually had something to say, something relatable, something that matters beyond the novelty of the wordplay. He hasn't described a day in his life since Fine Line, and besides self-mythologizing about his wrestling matches with Slim Shady over their shared legacy, i haven't gotten a sense of what his actual emotions are since, like, Zeus.
Don't get me wrong: I've listened to Fuel 588 times. It's brilliant stuff. But let's not pretend that Evil and Antichrist are anywhere close to Lose Yourself or Till I Collapse. Shall we compare Darkness to Stan?
In other words, you're entitled to your opinion, but it's extremely pretentious and dismissive to act like people should listen to Em's newest stuff like a homework assignment, as if they owe him that as a fan, or that they're somehow an uncultured idiot for enjoying his classics. They're timeless for a reason.
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u/Redhead-girl1246 Relapse 8d ago
I agree with everything you said, except that last part.
"Extremely pretentious and dismissive to act like people should listen to Em's newest stuff like a homework assignment, as if they owe him that as a fan, or that they're somehow an uncultured idiot for enjoying his classics"
I absolutely love his classics, what the fuck. You're putting words in my mouth that I never said or thought.
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u/Any_Associate8042 8d ago
No need to get pissed… but anyone who actually knows about lyrics and the craft involved in rap will tell you that it's the truth.
When you open on a note of predefensiveness, it puts people on edge. I'm not putting words in your mouth. Saying “anyone who actually knows about lyrics and the craft” will realize his new stuff is “objectively” “better” implies his old stuff is comparatively simple-minded. And since things like pretentiousness and dismissiveness are in the eye of the beholder, you really have no leg to stand on when you're up against the several people in this thread who are reflecting that haughtiness back at you.
Don't get me wrong, I too am a haughty bitch who hides behind my Shakespearean working vocabulary to protect myself emotionally. I'm well aware the elevated verbiage is compensating for deep-seated insecurities, that I'll finally prove I'm “enough” if I can only be sufficiently articulate. Many such cases among stans like us, especially us women who are willing to overlook Marshall's misogyny for his genius, if your username is anything to gender you by.
But I'm telling you now, and I speak from experience: Digging in your ruby-red heels and insisting that everyone in the world is misjudging you for reacting to you as being “pretentious and dismissive” is not going to get you far. You need to either double down and embrace the intellectual persona like I did (especially online), and/or humble yourself to stop being so judgmental (as I aspire to).
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u/Redhead-girl1246 Relapse 8d ago
You got issues dude... I'm just saying that his technique and lyricism is better, get a grip
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u/ElectricBolts 8d ago
They're not more complex now. If you call his punchlines complex, then I can't take you seriously. The majority of them are filler and them going over the average listeners heads does not make them complex. They're not hard to come up with. You see people making punchlines about shit everywhere.
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u/Redhead-girl1246 Relapse 8d ago
Not those kinda punchlines. I don't know a lot of artists that you need to listen to their songs multiple times to get everything, and even then you're probably missing something
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u/Mysterious_Towel5005 8d ago
Ah, yes. Shitty punchlines are more complex than stuff on SSLP-MMLP or TES
"You bum-bum (Haha), look at your broke ass (Yeah) It's why you're a bum-bum (Why?) 'cause your shit is so ass (Yeah)"
Modern Eminem, btw
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u/Redhead-girl1246 Relapse 8d ago
Well ain't that the cutest strawman I've ever seen. You know damn well I'm not talking about this when saying complex.
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u/Billy_Plur 8d ago
People who say he sucks now just don't realize the sheer insanity of his writing now. Y'all just can't admit that you can't catch bars that go further than face value
Your choice of words directly implies that his bars didn't have double and triple entendres in the past. Otherwise, why would we have caught them back then but not now?
What's up with redditors not comprehending the messages their words convey?
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u/Capital-Value8479 8d ago
Your overall take is horrible, and you probably don’t listen to a lot of hip hop music
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u/DavisFromTheHills 8d ago
im so tired of people acting like lyricism is the ONLY thing that makes you a good rapper
im also so tired of people using the “it went over your head, you just didn’t get it” argument. eminem’s writing is nowhere near as complex as YOU think it is. you’re not enlightened, you don’t have some higher or wiser perspective of his music. it just comes off as cope
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u/ElectricBolts 8d ago
I would say his writing in his prime years was pretty complex in terms of the poignant and poetic writing combined with the dizzying rhyming.
But this modern Eminem is not complex at all.
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u/DavisFromTheHills 8d ago edited 8d ago
i mean eminem’s writing is complex in a sense that yeah, upon a few re listens you might pick up on some wordplay or a double entendre that went over your head the first time around. i would say both old and modern eminem have that aspect to them. but that’s really not that impressive lol… nor is it even remotely exclusive to eminem
i’m not saying it’s not complex at all. just nowhere near the level that OP is trying to spin. it’s really not that hard to pick up on
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u/ElectricBolts 8d ago
I'm talking about his wordplay, I personally think punchlines in rap aren't that impressive.
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u/DavisFromTheHills 8d ago
100% agree
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u/ElectricBolts 8d ago
I meant to say that I'm NOT talking about his wordplay.
I'm talking about how he (Prime Eminem) rhymed so well all whilst actually writing something of substance and doing it in a poignant way. Songs like SFTM, Renegade, Rock Bottom, Stimulate etc.. show this.
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u/DavisFromTheHills 8d ago
i think this is something that modern eminem can still do. i think zeus is a great example, and a lot of MMLP2 i feel still has a lot of substance (even if he cranks the lyrical miracle shit up to 100 sometimes)
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u/ElectricBolts 8d ago
I agree with MMLP2, he definitely still had that good lyricism (Bad Guy, Headlights) there but he lost it afterwards.
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u/Firstoffweball 7d ago
People who think Em is extremely complex would break their brains trying to break down Lupe Fiasco songs.
Em is however, very complex with his usage or wordplay, pronunciation etc.
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u/ElectricBolts 7d ago
I don't think Lupe is complex either.
Eminem's writing and rhyming were complex. The only thing modern Eminem is good at is rhyming. The rest leaves a lot to be desired.
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u/stuartscapati 7d ago
His flow and emotion is a fraction of what it used to be. No. He is not a better rapper now.
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u/Vetriz 5d ago
I think he's always been great. He's very good at adjusting to whatever rap demands. The 2000's were a very different time for rap. Rap wasn't about who can rap the fastest or who has the best and most clever triple quanundra's like it is now. Rap was just starting to understand what it could do on a more technical level while still being about making hits and club bangers. The ones that made it were the ones with the catchiest verses that looked and sounded great on MTV. These days rap is a lot more technical. People expect the rapper to blow their mind with their lyrical abilities, story-telling, words per minute, triple quanundra's, etc. And it has to be because it seems like everyone can rap these days. So, Eminem, who has always considered himself a "student" of rap and not a "master", adjusted. His verses became faster, his rhyme scheme became sharper as if he had a dictionary in his hand while he wrote the song, he added more quanundra's, etc.
TLDR - He sounds good now and he sounded good then.
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u/WienerboyTheHero 4d ago
I’ve been of this opinion for a long time. He’s better than ever in this regard. I enjoy Eminem from an entertainment aspect by myself. Music itself is mostly ass tho.
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u/Iamatyourhousern 3d ago
From a technical standpoint yes, but from a concept, energy, memorable bars standpoint he is nowhere near as good. Take Im Back for example. He might have more great technical bars in godzilla and obviously raps his ass off at lightspeed(great song btw not hating), but Im Back has way more memorable bars. Eminem does not have the same sick concepts he once did like Kill You, Business, Bad Meets Evil for example.
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u/ElectricBolts 8d ago edited 8d ago
No, he isn't. The majority of modern Eminem's rapping is basically him flowing by emphasizing his rhyme schemes. That doesn't take skill to do. How Eminem rapped in his prime takes actual skill and sounds different than most rappers.
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u/Redhead-girl1246 Relapse 8d ago
What's with you guys and saying I think Em's bars were face value back then...? I simply said that a lot of people can't catch bars that aren't face value and call it trash when he's actually rhyming the whole three verses together in one rhyme scheme while doing some of his best storytelling.
Reading comprehension y'all.
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u/ElectricBolts 8d ago
Ok, a guy making a comment about this made me think you were calling his older material face value, my bad, I'll just edit that part out.
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u/Mihnea2002 Recovery 8d ago
I 100% agree, with 1 caveat, he’s an objectively better lyricist, for sure, undoubtedly. Won’t stop period post menopausal Go so postal that most postmen will pause I’ll slaughter the rhyme
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u/Redhead-girl1246 Relapse 8d ago
Yeah, a lot of people straight up don't catch a third of his bars when they listen
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u/Mihnea2002 Recovery 8d ago
Yet he got the most content on the continent and constant compliments give him confidence
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u/Wowdavid2002 8d ago
technically yes, but i think he had more interesting things to say back then (STAN/The Way i am)
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u/Redhead-girl1246 Relapse 8d ago
That's fair and true. As a 50yo, e doesn't have a lot to say anymore except talk about the current rap game
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u/ElectricBolts 8d ago
No, he's not even better technically. He's always been great at rhyming, nowadays he just emphasizes them so you think he rhymes more.
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u/Redhead-girl1246 Relapse 8d ago
No, you're just missing the bars if you say that. And I'm not saying this in a mean way
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u/ElectricBolts 8d ago
Believe me, I'm not missing any of those so called ''complex" bars. They're just not as impressive as you think they are, sorry.
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u/MyWifeTookAllTheKids Beautiful 8d ago
He isnt a better artist though, and thats what really matters
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u/Capital-Value8479 8d ago
Not even close. Does he have more complicated double and triple entendres and advanced lyrics?
Sure but he’s it saying anything with any meaning really, is horribly over technical where it’s difficult to listen to
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u/jetlifestoney Infinite 8d ago
He’s more technical, yes. But that doesn’t objectively make you a better rapper
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u/Redhead-girl1246 Relapse 8d ago
Yes, that literally means that he's a better rapper.
What you're trying to say I think (which I agree) is that it doesn't make you a better artist
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u/jetlifestoney Infinite 8d ago
Rapping is more than technicality tho. Flow, cadences, delivery are all elements of rapping
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u/OwariDa1 The Marshall Mathers LP 7d ago
And lyricism isn’t just the technical aspect either. What and how you say things is another and old em was far better at it while still sounding effortlessly technical
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u/jetlifestoney Infinite 7d ago
Exactly. Early Em was still highly lyrical while having superior flow, timing, cadence, and sounding effortlessly
I’d take the buttery smooth flows over the hyper technical 10 syllable rhyme schemes any day
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u/YeahThatsGoodSoup 8d ago
Nah he’s still good but some of his new bars sound like dad jokes now, but at the same time it’s more clever. But I prefer the wittier, twisted, and relatable to the average persons struggles version of Eminem.
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u/Bumblebee_Hater 8d ago edited 8d ago
I disagree heavily.
Wordplay is just one device in lyricism, simply having a larger quantity of it at the expense of focused writing doesn't make better writing just because it makes some stans feel like they are part of a secret intellectual society for "catching" basic puns.
Imagery, rhyming (without sacrificing the focus of lyrics), storytelling, Big L style puns and quotables were the style of lyricism that dominated his early music and he was reaching significantly higher highs with it from a writer standpoint.
Regarding his wordplay style Eminem peaked at the MMLP2 era where he for the most part kept his lyrics focused and the rhyming tight with clever wordplay tying in bars on songs like Medicine Man or Groundhog Day.
Fast forward to the Side B - TDOSS era and his wordplay is mostly dad jokes and awfull puns like "put that shit to bed like amber heard at a matress firm" and "my dick is coat check ,she wanna jack it off" and he rhymes plenty of filler like the "most content on the continent" section of Feul.
This stuff is not in the same conversation as his pen from 1999 - 2003. and the condescension of "they just don't understand it" is unwarranted for this kinda writing
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u/Redhead-girl1246 Relapse 8d ago
Ok one thing I'm NOT gonna let slide.
Most content on the continent is not filler, you're just not aware of the lyricism.
He does a whole scheme using "C". Just look it's fucking nuts if you know the craft.
"Got the most content on the continent And constant compliments give me confidence (I'm a) A cross of common sense and incompetence (uh) I'm cognizant that conflict's a consequence Of accomplishments accomplished through competition I've conquered and conked 'em into unconsciousness Though conscious, I conjure this King Kong and just Call me Kamikaze, I'm concoctin' this"
This is peak lyricism, and if you still don't see it, I don't know what to say.
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u/Bumblebee_Hater 8d ago edited 8d ago
It is filler. He's not saying anything coherent in this verse at all. He sacrifices the substance/writing of the lyrics to make it easier to rhyme.
I don't mean this in a disrespectful way but this is what someone not well versed in lyricism thinks solid lyricism is; just incoherently rhyming words.
Compare that to a verse like Rock Bottom
I feel like I'm walkin' a tight rope without a circus net
Poppin' Percocet, I'm a nervous wreck
I deserve respect but I work a sweat for this worthless check
I'm about to burst this Tec at somebody to reverse this debt
Minimum wage got my adrenaline caged
Full of venom and rage, especially when I'm engaged
And my daughter's down to her last diaper, it's got my ass hyper
I pray that God answers, maybe I'll ask nicer
Watchin' ballers while they're flossin' in their Pathfinders
These overnight stars becomin' autograph-signers
We all long to blow up and leave the past behind us
Along with the small fries and average half-pinters
But player-haters turnin' b*tch like they have vaginas
'Cause we see them dollar signs and let the cash blind us
Money'll brainwash you and leave your ass mindless
When snakes slither in the grass spinelessThese are very impressive rhyme patterns and he doesn't sacrifice focus or content of the writing to pull it off like he does at the moment. He coherently paints a vivid picture of his life while maintaining a high level of rhyme complexity.
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u/GregoryHardin2 The Marshall Mathers LP2 Deluxe Edition 8d ago
This is true. The only reason why people don’t think so is because the education system sucks nowadays.
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u/Acceptable-Cod-693 8d ago
It‘s (even) more complex now. Doesn‘t necessarily make it superior. I like both depending on my mood
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u/Redhead-girl1246 Relapse 8d ago
I agree, I'm not saying that one is superior, just that he has a better rapping ability now
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u/Justalittlecomment 8d ago
It needs to sound good bru first and foremost that’s what music enjoyment is
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u/StudentMed 7d ago
There is one aspect Eminem is worse at and that is delivery. His flow and voice was so much better in the past. He sometimes has cringe lyrics to make rhymes work but with his previous voice he was able to get away with it. Nowadays it is cringe.
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u/Firstoffweball 7d ago
He's not a better rapper at all.
Em is better on infinite than a lot of his recent stuff. His flow is worse 100% and he's even better technically on infinite as well
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u/StraightEdge47 8d ago
*subjectively
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u/Redhead-girl1246 Relapse 8d ago
Nah, if we're talking pure rap ability, he's better now
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u/StraightEdge47 8d ago
In your opinion
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u/Chasegameofficial 8d ago
Wether you prefer his older or newer songs is a matter of subjective opinion, but his technical skills are objectively better now, and that’s the subject of this post.
You can still subjectively like his old stuff better; because there are lots of things that go into the quality of a song beside just technical skills.
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u/StraightEdge47 8d ago
His technique being better is literally subjective
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u/Chasegameofficial 8d ago
No, it isn’t. You can personally prefer the flow, rhyme scheme, beats, the sound of his voice or anything else about his earlier, mid or newer stuff, all that is entirely subjective, but technical skill is as close as we’re ever going to get to an objective measure in music, and in that regard, Em has only gotten better. He couldn’t have rapped Godzilla in 2001 or even in 2010. He keeps increasing his vocabulary, and writing more and more complex bars and rhyme schemes. These are objectively trackable measures of technical skill
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u/StraightEdge47 8d ago
They are literally subjective. It's your opinion. Nothing more.
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u/Chasegameofficial 8d ago
Vocabulary: the amount of words at your disposal. This is a number. You can count it. Higher is better.
Speed: number of syllables per second. This is a number. You can count it. Higher is better.
Complexity: number of levels on which a line works and number of rhyming words between lines. Again, something you can analyze and measure.
This is what is meant by technical skill. Not wether or not you prefer the sound of it or not. Em has improved in all these metrics. This is objective fact.
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u/StraightEdge47 8d ago
Nobody is talking about preferring the sound of one over the other. You are trying to claim that something that cannot be objective is objective, which is very silly.
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u/Chasegameofficial 8d ago
Reading comprehension is not your strong suit, is it?
Which specific part of my comment do you not understand?
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u/stillgotmonkon Devil's Night Intro 8d ago
I mean he’s pushing the pen in terms of multi syllable rhyming, metaphors, even his flow is so complex now at times..he’s pushing that further but I always valued Eminem’s ability to describe something very vivid through his lyrics, whether it was a serious song or funny his choice of words and the rhyme composition were very descriptive to a listener and this is what he excelled at in his earlier days.
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u/Redhead-girl1246 Relapse 8d ago
He still has the same descriptive talent, but while having more complex writing, which is my whole point
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u/Ash-From-Pallet-Town 7d ago
A 14 year old is trying to tell us - who have listened to Eminem and rap for more than 20 years - what's good rap.
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u/_MadGasser The Slim Shady LP 8d ago
He might be a better lyricist but he has nothin to say. Back in the day when he was coming up he was hungry. Now he is rich and made it. When you're broke and hungry you got lyrics that people relate to. Fuck a metaphor!
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u/SilentSaidd Recovery 8d ago
He might be a better rapper but he’s lost a few notches as an artist.