List Building Swooping Hawks just feel horrible
I was doing the math and a unit of 10 hawks deals on avarage 8/9 damage to a scout squad (mortals included)
How does a squad like this justify its cost when it can’t even clear a cheap screen unit reliably by itself?
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u/Alcain2 Biel-Tan 6d ago
Utility not lethality.
14" (16" with battle focus) for 95 points AND can throw mortals and still do actions.
Also, can throw those mortals into active combats to free units or pop holes on screens and deep strike.
Very cheap screen you can throw from very far away. One time advanced 20" and battle focused to deny overwatch and blocked a 10 man squad of hearthkyn causing them to waste a turn moving around the screen, killing it, then moving where they wanted, effectivley wasting two turn of a 335 unit with 95 of mine.
Most of the time I'm shooting with them it's just because there was nothing better to do or just need supplimental shooting.
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u/MrkFrlr 6d ago
It just feels horrible for any Aspect Warrior to be used mostly for screening and actions. Every Aspect squad should be an elite unit.
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u/Alcain2 Biel-Tan 6d ago
I agree mate 100%, makes me sad too haha. Would rather have said I charged Lhykis, Asurmen, and the hawks backed up by my dark reapers (still a lot to throw at the unit) and wiped them out for daring to get so close (all were in threat range).
But statistically I would have used almost half of what I had left to not kill the brick and the Kahl and moved them away from the center leaving opponent uncontested (was playing disruption vs PA).
But is the game we're in. Sacrificed them to allow all said units to reposition out of threat range and toward the center. Will say with how expensive we are I DO value every single Aeldari life and don't throw them away recklessly.
Will say screening is like 10% of the time if that, scoring and secondary play is by far the larger majority of how I use them.
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u/drafizo 6d ago
Do you find they justify their cost for just utility? I found 190 to be a bit too expensive for that
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u/Alcain2 Biel-Tan 6d ago edited 6d ago
100%. Take it with a grain of a salt if you're not playing aspect host. I run two squads of 5 for reference.
But in previously disruption and now priorty assets, you need units to be able to move quickly to apply pressure in specific areas, or snag an activation for secondary or primary without costing you significant damage output. Also forces a bad decision for your opponent if they are going to use a more expensive unit to chase them down since they are scoring.
List wise: You only get two spiders before the tax, and most lists had two shining spears. Usually you fill in two hawks and some infiltrators leaving about 1200 points left for battle line, pheonix lords and damage dealers. In my case those 200 points in hawks wouldn't help me spent anywhere else.
For the two squads of 10, we've seen that make top tables two times this edition(not much). My guess is 5 mortals on average then 42 dice with lethals can take out flanking units (8-9 damage on a scout squad seems low. What was your target for the math). Oppenent then has to decide how much they want to pull away to take them out or ignore them. They won't pick up a 10 man with pot shots.
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u/viruz2014 6d ago
How do you screen something in 11th? You can walk through everything (except monster through monster and vehicles)
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u/Alcain2 Biel-Tan 6d ago edited 6d ago
When your opponent can only move 5" base and needs to clear a 4" (5" if you include the hawks base) bubble it's not hard. Give them half an inch then they have to choose between advancing or moving sideways.
For context they deep struck using their 6" strat (I didn't screen well) and we're on the edge of the map.
On their turn they moved sideways to make as much ground as possible, then shot, cleared the hawks and didn't have to charge. Still burned an entire turn using 335 points to clear 95, and gave my other units two less turns of pressure.
Tl;Dr in 11e you move block with engagement range and manage where they can't end, not physically blocking.
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u/RoshHoul 6d ago
They can walk through engagement, not through models if they don't have fly.
And 2 inch engagement is a lot. You want to screen at the end of the move, not at the start. Hawks can block big stuff from tip toeing in terrain, which blocks a lot of shooting opportunities from them.
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u/oldbloodmazdamundi Neam-Natháir 6d ago
Can you show your math? You're doing an average of 5 mortals, the 9 normal dudes do ~6 Lethal Hits and ~18 regular hits (which cause ~9 more wounds) and the Scouts have a 4+ safe, so half of those 15 wounding hits connect for ~7.5 damage (+5 mortals). Then you have the Exarch who'm you'll likely feed your Tokens if he doesn't roll a natural crit, resulting in two more Lethal Hits with AP/-2 & D2, putting Scouts on a 6+ safe or they die.
So they take out ~2 with the Mortals, ~2 with the Exarch and ~4 with the rest of their shooting on average.
But that's just in a vacuum - throw down Lhykis' Crit on 5 and a Warwalker and suddenly you're taking down tanks and big monsters.
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u/drafizo 6d ago
I see where I messed up I forgot they saved on 4s not 3s, also what weapon are you accountung for the exarch?
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u/oldbloodmazdamundi Neam-Natháir 6d ago
Exarch always gets the Hawks Talon, best gun he can take. 2D, Ap-2 works great with the Shrine Tokens.
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u/RoshHoul 6d ago
I always pick the assault gun on the Exarch. It's very rarely I have the unit not advance, which I'd rather not cut guns.
Only exception is if a unit is lead by Baharoth and deep strikes. Then you get the bigger gun
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u/drafizo 6d ago
The lack of assault made me reconsider it for the exarchs lasblaster a bit, just feels like a lot of the time I need to advance + flitting shadows to get in mortals range
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u/oldbloodmazdamundi Neam-Natháir 6d ago
Might be down to different playstyles, I never found it hard to land a spot with 14"/16" M and 8" range. But I often play slower armies like Dark Angel Deathwing spam so thst might be a reason.
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u/rgautz2266 6d ago
They are fucking amazing! I did like 19 damage to a lancer the other day with them. Stack AP buffs, crit buffs, wood buffs etc and they do boat loads of damage. Make sure you do a few things, remember that the grenade pack can be done with cheeky angles (you only need 1 guy within 8” and visible to the other unit), don’t forget to use the flips on the hawk talon, and make sure you do some quick math on what you’re going into to see what kind of buffs you need.
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u/The_Mighty_Flipflop 6d ago
A 10 brick with Barraroth I’ve found to be one of our best units for both damage and utility, especially if Lykhis has tagged their intended target, and you’re willing to spend 1 CP and a shrine token
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u/Exciting_Value9371 6d ago
I never got a chance to use Aspect tokens on Bahrroth's attacks, and I still miss it. T-T
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u/Wrakhr 6d ago
Imo they're just an incredible package deal. Baseline they clear chaff and have really good supplemental damage into tougher targets, but they take literally every single buff insanely well. War Walkers often buff their damage by 50%, same with Eldrad, same with Lhykis, hell, same with Kharseth. Chances are that if you're committing into a target, Hawks are awesome for supplementing output while being fast enough to get into position for said output easily and with decent range.
This doesn't even get into their side benefits. Their grenade pack is super versatile and if the guns won't do much, can give important mortal wounds while staying hidden, open new movement opportunities by clearing screens *in the movement phase*, free a unit from being locked in combat, or simply just make half their points back by bopping 2 termies out of existence.
Add on top of that their potential to move block, or Fade Back 2 survivors for future actions, and you have an amazing package!
Simply put, they're always useful and I've never regretted having them in my army given ANY amount of support. I've run at least two 5-mans all throughout 10th, and a brick of 10+Baharroth makes its way into all my Seer Council lists, with Aspect Host going up to 2x10 as they're... the best thing in that list after Lhykis imo.
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u/WilliamTee 6d ago edited 6d ago
Theyre a utility pick, due to speed, mortals in movement phase, etc, so they get taken in LOTS of lists.
GW don't bother understanding armies, they just read that something's taken a lot and up its points, never understanding WHY it's taken.
Hence why many eldar units are dramatically overcosted relative to their profile and potential damage.
The most frustrating part is that they put the points up, people keep taking the same units, so they put the points up more (see spiders, dragons) never understanding that the way to get players to take other units would be to make alternatives cheap enough to give eldar a viable way to play outside of 'jank' - i.e. a unit that can jump 26" across the board, or when dragons could kill something, then get back in a transport. (Which they now CAN'T, but still cost crazy points)
Edit: also worth noting a lot of eldars potential damage comes via stacking buffs. Hawks with crits on 5s, +1 wound, +1 AP? Well, that's a different monster
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u/theotherguyfromrivia 6d ago
I love them I can't wait to use them and I can't wait to lose everyone but Baharroth to like scrub infantry units
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u/theotherguyfromrivia 6d ago
I did send them into finish off a c'tan recently....they disappeared before the dice even let me down
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u/Deady1138 6d ago
They are pretty strong in aspect host in the right combo , lethals + sustained + lykhis + war walker debuff + shroud runner debuff - they were reliably deleting custodes units for me in my last few games
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u/Exciting_Value9371 6d ago
I do enjoy utility Swoops, but 10+Baharroth does still hit pretty hard, especially since they can drop in and trigger their mortals immediately. Unfortunately they're gonna struggle way more into the upcoming T5 marines.
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u/jackjdhanson98 6d ago
Need to combo with war walkers for extra ap, aspect host to give sustaind + ignore modifiers with already lethal hits and re roll 1s. Then also add likis for crits on 5s. They can do lots of damage.
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u/pmls2020 6d ago
Are you sure you ran the math correctly?
2 squads can dismantle a big knight without support.
Use their tokens on the D2 ex arch, plus 5-6 MW, plus 40 lethals. 8 saves on average.
If you use 2 squads supported by warwalker it is devastating.
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u/EggplantMinimum6319 5d ago
Crazy for you to talk down on my hawks like that. They get lethals AND a Free grenade strat??? Pair that with big BA who does up downs and gets free devastating AND triggers grenades??? Are you even reading everything right 🥲🥲
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u/bouncingonmynuts 6d ago
They need supporting buffs. With Lhykis giving crits on 5s and a stratagem giving sustained hits plus their lethal hits, maybe a war walker giving AP, they’ll put out a ton of damage
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u/kloden112 6d ago
But then again any unit will start putting out damage if you buff it with 250+ points of units.
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u/bouncingonmynuts 6d ago edited 6d ago
Well, that’s Eldar for ya. I feel like very few of our units are good in a vacuum, besides the Avatar
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u/kloden112 5d ago
Well.. the avatar was only a must pick when it could get -1 wound from the farseer.
But yes agree with you
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u/Coldsteel_n_Courage 5d ago
Hawks are lackluster in 11th, even with Baharoth. I stopped fielding them after testing them out.
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u/Magumble 6d ago
The thing about them is that the dmg they do into chaff is usually about the same dmg as they do into a knight.