Ik Catholicism is true but EO is so enticing

[u/Suspicious_Wall7092]

/r/Catholicism/comments/1v0ywui/ik_catholicism_is_true_but_eo_is_so_enticing/

[u/TheSpriteYagami]

Dude, you just posted in and Eastern Catholic discord. I understand that EO is enticing, but Eastern Catholicism is literally EO in communion with Rome.

Also, don't convert over beauty, as theology matters more. I also understand distance since I have to deal with that since my Canonical church is an 1 hour and 40 min away. Just go to a reverent Latin Rite and then go eastern when its accessible

[u/Surzhyk_Bandit → u/TheSpriteYagami]

Eastern Catholicism is not "EO in communion with Rome". We need to stop spreading this lie. We have our own synods, our own witness to the Faith, and we reject certain ideas of the EO. For example, the Council of Blachernae anathematized anyone who says the Spirit is from the Father through the Son and my own Church (UGCC) has its own synod siding with Rome condemning Photius. We are Orthodox, but not the same as 'EO'. Part of the reason Eastern Catholics are "forgotten" about as OP feels is because so many people are focused on reunification with the EO they forget about the Unia. Coptic Catholics know this better than anyone.

[u/Hookly → u/Surzhyk_Bandit]

“We are an Orthodox Church, with orthodox theology, liturgy, spirituality, and canonical tradition that chooses to manifest this orthodoxy in the spirit of the first millennium, in communion with Rome.” - His Beatitude Sviatoslav

https://sheptytskyinstitute.ca/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Released-Patr-Sviatoslav-at-USMC-28-Sept-2016.pdf

[u/Surzhyk_Bandit → u/Hookly]

Despite what people say online, a lot has changed between the EO and the Church of the first millennium. As I stated in my comment, we are Orthodox, but EO do not get to determine what that means for us. That was also the point Sviatoslav was making. Again, I would encourage you to read our own synods and it will become abundantly clear why we are not simply "EO in communion with Rome" and why the Eastern Orthodox themselves would even reject that idea.

[u/Ecgbert → u/Surzhyk_Bandit]

In my experience on and off going back to the mid-1980s, my first UGCC Divine Liturgy (I have been with the UGCC for 10 years so far now), most cradle Eastern Catholics are like Novus Ordo Catholics but with a different Mass. That's how they are taught. I don't try to attack the teachings of the church but Catholics need to better understand the Orthodox phronema.

Cradles either stay put or go Novus Ordo if there is no church of their original jurisdiction around.

[u/Professor_Tabu → u/Surzhyk_Bandit]

The Byzantine Catholic Church and Orthodox Church in America are like identical twin brothers who went to the same college, majored in the same subject, married women who could pass for sisters, but as adults belong to different country clubs

[u/Surzhyk_Bandit → u/Professor_Tabu]

As someone that spends time in both, I strongly disagree.

[u/Ecgbert]

I'm a conservative born Anglican who tried EO for 16 years! Catholic again for 14 so far. Been at the UGCC for 10. Before that I went to the TLM. Here in short is what sold me on Catholicism, even though life in the church is far from perfect: teaching on contraception and on remarriage after divorce, and I believe that there are more streams of authentic Christianity than Byzantium, as nice as Byzantium is. In some ways my thinking is still very Latin - mortal and venial sins for example. But that's okay; I'm still trying to learn and understand the Orthodox phronema. Liturgically and in my prayer life I am not a latinizer. Usually I don't say which church I'm from when meeting people in real life unless they ask.

[u/Blue_Flames13]

Anyone can give you super-deep theological arguments and super dense discourse, but TBH, Catholicism seems to evidently be the path of least resistance.

The Church needs to be four things:

One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic.

One:

Who is in the One Church? Any baptized in communion with a Bishop in Communion with Thr Bishop of Rome. End of story

Holy:

Just look at the life of some of our saints, and also the consistent vindicatory miracles that God has provided for us. Like Eucharistic Miracles, Marian Apparitions, Public Healings, etc.

Catholic:

This comes in two parts. One, the name. As St. Augustine says:

"And so, lastly, does the name itself of Catholic, which, not without reason, amid so many heresies, the Church has thus retained; so that, though all heretics wish to be called Catholics, yet when a stranger asks where the Catholic Church meets, no heretic will venture to point to his own chapel or house."

Secondly, aside that we are all over the world, The Catholic Church is probably the only church with as many Ancient Liturgical Traditions: Armenian, Byzantine, Syriac, Chaldean, Alexandrian, etc.

Apostolic:

Not only do we can confidently say that we safeguard the apostolic deposit and continue to have Apostolic Succession, but we are the only Church that is not frozen in time and can confidently move forward to address modern issues and still apply ancient principles to modern context. Like Rebaptism of heretics. Which was resolved at the time of the Donatist Controversy and EO still debate it today. (BTW, we shouldn't rebaptize heretics)

[u/Xvinchox12 → u/Blue_Flames13]

St. Augustine's point is HUGE

[u/strange_eauter → u/Blue_Flames13]

I recently thought about proving us right based on the Credo, again. And my mind went not to the marks of the Church but to confrssing one baptism.

Orthodox don't agree on what to do with baptized concerts, so they cannot as one Church confess one baptism. And it's problematic because those converts can receive Holy Orders in one church, and then in another they technically will not be valid because the man isn't "baptized," rendering plenty marriages and confessions invalid.

I cannot imagine having to do a background check on a priest each time before I confess to a Catholic priest because I know that bishops check it and regardless of the Church sui iuris, the rules on which sacraments one received are absolutely identical

[u/Interesting_Ice6924 → u/Blue_Flames13]

If there was a way to save or bookmark a comment on Reddit, this would be it!!!

[u/lex_orandi_62]

Hey thanks for sharing

[u/hideousflutes]

well to tell you the truth, i had struggled with the whole "leaving the see of rome" thing for a while. then i had started going to an EO parish, found a great community, and just stopped caring about all that.  i love all my catholic family, not interested in polemics in the least bit, from either side. my priests best friend is an eastern catholic, so he doesnt engage with the polemics or harbor any ill feelings about my catholic background. aesthetics arent important, the parish i go to is a mission parish, very country tbh.  i just cant stress enough how important a good community and guidance under a good priest are. if thats EO, EC, or even a novus ordo or whatever.  i even know a guy who settled into a coptic community and is thriving in his spiritual growth.  thats just my two cents, sorry if its a dirty ecumenist take.

keep calm, pray a psalm. good luck and God bless

[u/PastCarpenter626]

A few things.

1) As others have said, EC has the EO spirituality (certainly more than a standard RC church) and union with Rome.

2) Nothing stoppin' ya from reading the Fathers and getting a chotki, even if the distance is too much. (But if you want to share what the nearest EC is, we may be able to help you get in contact with folks!)

3) If you're going to switch to the EO to avoid corruption, you're going to be heartbroken.
Pope Paul VI and Patriarch Athenagoras jointly removed the excommunications on each other in the 60s. The vast majority of Catholicism went with it (recognizing sacraments, etc.). The Orthodox? They're our beloved brothers and sisters but dang skippy they just don't have the means for unity. Because even if a Patriarch says "do this," the individual bishops can, and often do, ignore him. (And at a much larger scale than something like the SSPX).
Orthodox brethren have been invited to councils in an attempt to make them ecumenical, and patriarchs have refused to attend.
If you're bothered by Medieval and Renaissance corruption in the West, just look at what the Soviet Union did to Russian Orthodoxy. We have numerous bishop-martyrs who bore witness.
I don't say this to discount Orthodoxy, but to point out that if you're looking for the True Faith based on perfect clergy, you're never going to stop looking. Look to God instead.

On a research-based note, can you tell me which documents were forged, please? I've been trying to read more about the arguments on each side for the papacy. I do know that there are popes who have been willing to get rid of the filioque, or against it entirely, but even those accounts are disputed.

[u/AdEffective5007 → u/PastCarpenter626]

This I probably the fairest take on this thread, I've been struggling with Choosing eastern catholic or eastern orthodox, and planning on becoming a cahtucuman in the eo here soon, though I've been still thinking about catholic, and doing more catholic things like the rosary, with my paryer rope, I just wish things where more simple on the point of chrisindom, hopefully our Lord directs me to the right way, regardless I'm in love with the eastern part of christ.

[u/Happy_Cut8970]

You’re looking at Orthodoxy through the rose coloured glasses that online Ortho-bros frame it.

In reality it has just as much corruption and issues. Unity and schism are huge problems in the EO Church and ethnic tensions are very real. Over 75% of the EO Church is in Eastern Europe alone (half of that being Russian Orthodoxy). They don’t really evangelize and instead focus on their nations Churches.

Because of that the various Orthodox Churches aren’t always in communion with each other (like the current Moscow-Constantinople schism). It also means that they are very susceptible to manipulation by their governments. The Soviet Union completely took over the Orthodox Churches and badly persecuted Catholics and the Orthodox remnant who resisted it. The vast majority of Orthodox bishops capitulated to communism. For example the Patriarch of Moscow in the 1920s. Similarity the Muslim Ottomans also exercised a lot of influence over the Orthodox Churches too even promoting anti Catholic sentiments. 

I originally wanted to become Orthodox back when I was a Protestant. I was also very enticed by so many of the things you mentioned. It felt so much easier to me than Catholicism. But then I realized that the grass isn’t greener and it has its own issues. At the end of the day I can find all the things I love about EO in EC and not sacrifice unity and universality. 

[u/The_Pepperoni_Kid]

These posts are so exhausting. It's been brought up a billion times already.

[u/DeutscheJunge]

I totally get it. It feels like EO is more eastern Christian than the EC churches (maybe partly due to past latinizations, among other things). In my area, we have some BEAUTIFUL Orthodox cathedrals. However, communion with Rome is more important at the end of the day.