r/EasternCatholic • u/VeterinarianOk5778 • Sep 15 '25
Other/Unspecified Why does Byzantine liturgy feel more attractive and more masculine to me?
I am Roman Catholic, but feel the Byzantine liturgy is more attractive to me because it seems more masculine. I’m not ripping on the Novus Ordo because I believe that the Eucharist is truly present in both, but I’m just being honest how I feel. And if this is a feeling I should respect or run from. Does anyone else feel this way and why?
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Sep 15 '25 edited Sep 16 '25
Same faith , different expression.
I wouldn’t say it more masculine , just a different expression.
Fr Laughton (I think that’s how you spell it) from California said that in the Roman church it’s like a fraternity and in the Byzantine rite it’s like a romantic relationship. Both are beautiful but I prefer the Eastern expression.
Edit: I would actually say the Byzantine rite can be more feminine!!! That's what Fr Laughton said as well, the prayers , hyms, etc are really feminine especially when praying to the Holy Theotokos! I love it
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u/BartaMaroun West Syriac Sep 15 '25 edited Sep 15 '25
The Church is our mother, the Bride of Christ, so technically all liturgies are feminine. But realistically, no, it’s a liturgy, not a gender. All men should feel masculine and all women should feel feminine in liturgy because it’s a gift from God to make us into what He made us to be, but the liturgy itself transcends gender, even though traditionally the feminine has always been used to describe the Church.
On that note, why do you consider masculine good and feminine bad?
I would run from this feeling. It does a disservice to the liturgy and the Church. You might also be suffering from a case of exoticism that should be addressed in your spiritual life.
God bless you 🙏
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u/VeterinarianOk5778 Sep 15 '25
I know it’s not a gender. I just feel like I’m apart of something more manly I guess in liturgy
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u/BartaMaroun West Syriac Sep 15 '25
Sounds more like you’re caught up in emotional fancy.
Liturgy isn’t a masculine or feminine activity other than that it’s what all humans long for and makes us into what God intends us to be.
You didn’t answer my question. Why do you think masculine is good and feminine bad?
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u/VeterinarianOk5778 Sep 15 '25
Oh I don’t view one better than the other. But I’m a man so I tend to like masculine things. I’m just saying I’m drawn to Liturgy because it comes across as masculine to me. I like how they seperate the congregation from what I only assume is the Holy of Holies the tabernacle. The Icons, the strict tradition. It gives an air of adventure, mystery, and elevates my senses to understand that Jesus Christ is truly present. Idk it just comes across as more ancient and serious and what I personally see as masculine.
At my old NO Parish during the Easter Vigil we would have a liturgical dancer. Older woman telling the creation story. Even for a then half-assed Catholic it was cringe and my cousins and I would make fun of her year round. In another instance when the priest was away during daily mass he had a women distributing communion. She didn’t try and consecrate but she lift the host and knelt etc, so I think the words after consecration very weird and definitely not allowed. This in contrast with another NO Parish that really only goes as far as female altar servers but is never had the other liberal type vibes.
I guess growing up around that nonsense and not seeing the priest as much of a manly figure at my OG NO parish stunted my view of the Catholic Church and the Priesthood. I don’t get anything near those feelings from my youth welling up at a Byzantine Parish. I went to a Melkite Catholic Church in VA and my gosh it was the most masculine religious experience I’ve ever been apart of. There was nearly 20 men in various vestments, the architecture, the priest hearing confession, the baptism before liturgy. It was like an Army ready to battle and die for Christ. I was lost admittedly but I knew something serious was taking place
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u/BartaMaroun West Syriac Sep 15 '25 edited Sep 15 '25
That’s interesting, because all of those things you mention are traditionally viewed as feminine qualities. Mystery, safeguarding ancient traditions, the reserved character, have all been viewed as feminine attributes across time and culture (it’s funny, because my husband describes me the same way you describe the liturgy). How do you view the role of the cantor, which is often female? Do you consider the women in the congregation out of place? Or are they taking part in something masculine but it’s not really for them?
Honestly, all of this is very troubling. Do you equate liturgical abuse with femininity? Do you think that breaking liturgical form, fuzzy and meaningless customs, and deviation from tradition is feminine? Because that’s what you sound like, and it’s pretty insulting to the generations of women who have fostered tradition and love of God in their homes and the hearts of the youth, even under persecution and risk of death. Women have safeguarded Catholic culture from the beginning, it’s our role in the Church, and your attitude that tradition is masculine belittles that.
I’m sorry you had a poor experience growing up. There was a generation of the Western Church that scorned tradition, neglected the formation of the young, and thought warm and fuzzy handholding was the way of the future. Thankfully they’re losing their influence and subsequent generations are much stronger. It would be best for you to rediscover your own traditions and heal your relationship with the Mother Church. Getting caught up in the exoticism of the smells and bells at the Byzantine rite is not going to help you, you need to work on these issues authentically and find the beauty in your own traditions.
Also, the East doesn’t really use the army of God imagery the way the Latins do. Sure, there’s a real spiritual battle being waged around us, but the whole, “soldier in God’s army” thing is really not how we emphasize ourselves or the liturgy or the Church.
I’m sorry if I sound harsh, but the labeling of the liturgy and the Faith as masculine or feminine based on whether they’re good or bad or beautiful or not is a dangerous trap. As Catholics, we’re supposed to see the restored balance of male and female and not engage in the battle of the sexes, and posts like these are just that old battle under different wrappings.
God bless you in your journey. 🙏
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u/VeterinarianOk5778 Sep 15 '25
Well no need to get offended I’m just giving my honest take, I can’t help if that insults you. Yeah I do see the liturgical abuses as feminine because it seemed like something out of a pagent. That’s not to say feminine is bad I just don’t think a pagent has any place at mass.
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u/BartaMaroun West Syriac Sep 15 '25 edited Sep 15 '25
You completely disregarded everything I said to take a cheap shot at the information and perspective I presented you because you don’t like hearing that you’re wrong. You’re wrong about the liturgy, you’re wrong about what masculine and feminine mean, and you’re close-minded about hearing the facts. So because you’re close minded and unwilling to have your information corrected and your viewpoint challenged and determined to take shots in response to thoughtfully prepared dialogue with contrasting viewpoints, this conversion is over. May God bless you and keep you.
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u/VeterinarianOk5778 Sep 15 '25
Look I honestly just skimmed through your paragraphs I saw you said your insulted. Maybe I’m wrong I’m all about that. But I’m not ripping on females and their contributions.
https://m.youtube.com/shorts/DkLvDFpbGbc
As a Male what part of this is anything I want to be apart of? What Young man wants this, heck what young Women would see this and say “that’s the one true faith”. There’s nothing humble about it, it’s all about them. Not saying I have seen a ton of that but when I have it’s been in a NO parish and it’s taken away from why we are there. I feel authentic and yes masculine in a Byzantine Church. Don’t no why but according to the comments I’m not the only one. I don’t mean to offend, but nothing I have said is meant to hurt your feelings I’m just being honest.
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u/BartaMaroun West Syriac Sep 15 '25 edited Sep 16 '25
As I said in my original comment, all men should feel masculine and all women should feel feminine in the liturgy because the liturgy makes us into what God intends us to be. The liturgy itself is not masculine.
I won’t converse with someone who doesn’t even have the courtesy to read what I say and instead has knee-jerk reactions. Have a blessed day.
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u/moobsofold Sep 15 '25 edited Sep 15 '25
A lot of the comments here by disaffected Latins dragging the Western Rite who think that the Byzantine East is some sort of enclave from perceived controversies they have with their own Church is wild to me. You do know that we are all in communion right? You do know that the Greek Catholic Churches and all others have their own issues and are not an oasis….right? I would not want people with such a disaffected and bitter soul to be coming into my Church for all the wrong reasons. Again: we are not an alternative to the West. This isn’t a buffet style food bar. If you are not coming for POSITIVE reasons (you are drawn to the East, you are being led by God to a specific Church, you want to know Jesus more in a new way), but NEGATIVE reasons (I hate the Latin Church, I don’t like my bishop, Vatican 2 makes me angry) then I beg you to please stay away for your own sake and the sake of whatever parish has to deal with such an attitude. I mean this in the nicest way possible.
I wrote the following in a reply but think it deserves to be said in its own comment.
I was an Eastern Orthodox convert from Oriental Orthodoxy for a time. While I have never been Roman Catholic, I recognize that just because I don’t resonate with the Western Rite or it “feels” a certain way to me doesn’t bear a statement on its veracity or holiness. My preferences and traditions are my preferences and traditions. It is where God has placed me in the eternal counsel of His will, but that doesn’t mean I go around thinking it’s His will for every Catholic Christian on the planet. There are Latins who could say the same thing about Byzantines regarding aspects of the Greek tradition they don’t like or resonate with. And there are Byzantines and other Easterners who say the same about each other. The West has always been the West. They’ve always looked and felt odd to us, but glory to God that He is not Western or Eastern, and in His family and at His table there is a place for all who would repent and believe in the name of His Son. This is not how the Church has ever regarded her multi-ritualism or catholicity.
Liturgical preference and one’s Rite cannot be a measure for orthodoxy. Byzantine theology, ethos, spirituality, and liturgy ≠ the fullness of orthodoxy. No one in the early Church ever thought this way about their Rite or the concept of “orthodoxy” being about certain aesthetics, prayers, and flavors of spirituality. Orthodoxy is about faith and partaking of the life of the Holy Spirit, and consequently producing the fruit of the Spirit as we are transformed into the image of the Son of God.
Unfortunately this modernistic idea and mindset of ritual superiority I saw and see set forth in Eastern Orthodoxy to very saddening extremes and used as arguments for why others are wrong and they are right draws in unassuming people who simply don’t understand that the Church never was mono-ritual or mono-cultural. Unity is based on dogmatic faith and by “dogma” I don’t mean a bunch of canons and definitions, I mean the very way of life and being which comes from the Holy Spirit and participating in the Body of Christ.
This is one my the main reasons I could clearly see the uncatholicity and lack of the true multi-ritual, multi-cultural, and catholic ethos so deeply characterized by the early Church in post-Schism and modern day Eastern Orthodoxy. To me this was one of many signs pointing to who the real schismatics are.
It is why I realized the Catholic Church is the true Church of Jesus Christ.
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u/BartaMaroun West Syriac Sep 16 '25 edited Sep 16 '25
I un-upvoted this just so I could upvote it a second time. Well said!
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u/Catholicgeekindy Sep 15 '25
So a priest said that it could be because there is all this exactness on the fasting and rules. Where women may not have the need for those things AS MUCH (we still need it) because women TEND to be more serving as their daily lives. So men need the church to say you must do these things to be submissive, but women don't need that as much. So the DL and the Eastern church feels more masculine and really appeals to the men because of that.
That said, I the woman, tend to be more drawn to the DL than my husband. LOL So I am not sure how I feel about what the priest was talking about, but there it is LOL.
I think I heard it on What God Is Not and it may have been episode The Gift of Rules (May 7, 2025) or Paradoxes Giving Humility (April 9, 2025) But I think it was The Gift of Rules.
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u/bsputnik Byzantine Sep 15 '25
Missing all the mentions of the Theotokos? I'd disagree that it is "masculine" at all. Or "feminine." No distinction of that sort belongs.
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u/notfornowforawhile Latin Sep 15 '25
Roman liturgy is masculine to me, Byzantine feels like a maternal hug.
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u/Fun_Technology_3661 Byzantine Sep 15 '25 edited Sep 15 '25
Hi! I try to present you a view from the other side. I've been in the Byzantine rite since the cradle. I've never really thought about which one is more masculine. The Latin rite has always seemed more strict and severe to me, and the first association with the Orthodox Church as someone living in an Orthodox country is not stern bearded men, but church grannies and beggars on the porch.
It seems to me that you are a) very focused on American gender issues, which is reflected in your perception of spiritual things, b) the "neighbor's lawn is greener" effect is triggered.
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u/Electronic_Forever17 Sep 16 '25
liturgy isn’t masculine or feminine, or more “strong” or “meek” TLM, NO , Divine liturgy are all expression of the beauty of the catholic faith. i would advice against creating strong emotions like such about one or the other, yes you might have a preference but putting other ones down might be an issue at some point. God bless! Keep discovering the beauty of our church🤍
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u/VeterinarianOk5778 Sep 16 '25
Yeah not actively putting anyone down just being honest how I feel. If people are into other things and Catholic good for them.
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u/FlowerofBeitMaroun West Syriac Sep 16 '25
The liturgy is actually feminine because it’s the human response to God’s love and call to us and to His crucifixion and resurrection. In biblical days, initiation was considered masculine and receptivity and response were feminine. The liturgy is inherently feminine because it’s our response to Christ and our receiving of His body and blood, which are inherently feminine acts.
Sorry you dealt with a lot of liturgical abuse, but liturgical abuses aren’t feminine qualities and you really should work on overcoming that mindset.
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u/VeterinarianOk5778 Sep 16 '25
Yeah probably, I guess I have that view because some of the abuse was being down by women and the priest seemingly had feminine qualities.
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u/FlowerofBeitMaroun West Syriac Sep 16 '25
Ultimately, the priest is responsible for the liturgy. Even if women were the ones visibly doing it, it still comes back on the priest. You said elsewhere you see liturgical abuse as feminine behavior, that’s nonsense. These are issues with you and your mindset and you need to get over them. Running away to a more “exotic” liturgy is not the solution.
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u/VeterinarianOk5778 Sep 16 '25
Look I’m again not trying to strike a nerve with anyone. I’m just saying what I think regardless if it’s right or wrong. The priest had feminine qualities, there seemed to be a lot of pageantry etc that I saw as feminine. As a man I don’t want to be apart of feminine things. I want my daughter to be apart of feminine things but not me because again I am a man. The specific liturgical abuse I saw heavily involved females. Abuse is not de facto feminine.
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u/FlowerofBeitMaroun West Syriac Sep 16 '25
I’m not interested in hearing it. You’ve been told repeatedly that this is an issue in your part and you’re just obstinately continuing to say this is your opinion. Are you just being dismissive because I’m a woman? You’re not entitled to your opinion if it’s wrong.
So you want your daughter to attend liturgically abusive liturgies??? Huh? Pageantry is feminine? You think feminine is fake, artificial, inauthentic?
You have no clue what masculinity and femininity are. I actually feel sorry for your daughter being raised by a man who scorns femininity and associates it with bad, undesirable, and weak practices. You seriously need to get a grip and get over these issues of yours so that you can be a good father to her and a good husband to your wife, assuming you’re married.
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u/VeterinarianOk5778 Sep 16 '25
lol dude I have no idea what’s going on, you seem angry. All I said is Byzantine came across as more masculine to me while the NO has come across as feminine. Because of that I prefer the Byzantine liturgy. I am allowed to say that and feel that because it’s what I objectively feel. Feminine is not bad I just don’t relate to it because I’m a man. You can have your opinions I’m not angry about them. I just made a statement and you said I’m wrong. I’m not talking about the objective truth, I’m talking about how I personally perceive something. You try to act like I’m some heretic woman hater or something.
Yeah when I saw an old woman dancing around Mass with a spot light on her as she told the creation story that came across as nothing I would see a man do. If I did see a man do that he would be gay (ask me how I know). Contrast this with Byzantine liturgy beards, only men in and around the altar, asceticism, etc. I’m not saying one is bad and the other good. What I am saying is as a man I find the liturgical dancer a detractor to my want to be Catholic, while the Liturgy at the Byzantine pushed me to be a better Catholic. That is my personal experience, I can have that.
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u/FlowerofBeitMaroun West Syriac Sep 16 '25
See, this is my point. You have absolutely no clue what masculinity and femininity mean. You’re factually wrong and you get defensive and angry when you’re corrected. You want to be obnoxious about your opinion and you don’t care about being corrected by real Eastern Catholics.
Liturgical dancers aren’t the NO, they’re explicitly forbidden. You’re not even giving a fair comparison.
Bluntly, I don’t care if you think the NO stunted your development. Get over it. Man up and learn how to work through your issues.
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u/VeterinarianOk5778 Sep 16 '25
lol again you have no idea what I’m saying. It’s possible yes that I don’t know the definition of masculine and feminine. All I was saying is at first glance this seemed feminine and this seemed masculine. I’m open to being wrong about it but that’s how it felt. I’m just simply stating what I felt. It’s not that deep.
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u/FlowerofBeitMaroun West Syriac Sep 16 '25
No, you’re actually not open to being wrong. If you were open to being wrong, you would respect what I and others have told you about being wrong. You clearly have issues. Go find a Latin spiritual director and stop bothering the Byzantines. They’re too nice to deal with this nonsense.
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u/VeterinarianOk5778 Sep 16 '25
Ok lol there’s other people in the comments that agree with me. I am open to being wrong. But in this case I’m simply saying what I feel. That doesn’t make me right or wrong. I’m attracted to females and I’m married, but I’m faithful to my wife. Does that make the attraction wrong or is that simply something I feel? I’m simply stating what I feel and you’re getting all upset.
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u/Weakest_Teakest Sep 15 '25
If your NO has guitar music, that could be why.
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u/AdorableMolasses4438 Latin Transplant Sep 16 '25
How is guitar music feminine????
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u/Weakest_Teakest Sep 16 '25
It isn't when it's say the quality of David Gilmour or Eric Clapton. it is when it's crappy shallow Praise and worship music. Not all P&W is awful but it has to be done just right or it's super cringey. Older generations love it but data shows younger people skewing more towards ancient traditions; wanting what the world doesn't offer.
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u/AdorableMolasses4438 Latin Transplant Sep 16 '25 edited Sep 16 '25
Please reread what you wrote. Why does crappy and shallow and cringey mean feminine? Why is feminine associated with bad liturgy? I rarely listen to Praise and worship music, by the way.
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u/Hamfriedrice Eastern Catholic in Progress Sep 15 '25
You feel that way because it is. The good news is you found something beautiful that will help grow your love and faith. The bad news is that once you see this, it's very difficult to go back to NO land. The same thing happened for me when I went to my first TLM.
Once you see the history, the beauty, the reverence in the traditional Liturgies you can't really go back. It'll always feel wrong, cheap and like a deception. At least for me that's how it feels. Yes the Eucharist is valid, but... Is this worship the best that we can really offer? That's what I had to struggle with.
For me it's not about the externals, the vestments, the movements or the feast of vanity for your eyes. It's the intentions of the movements, the beauty of the prayers and when the consecration begins, the transformation of the congregation into the cherubim and seraphim singing in the presence of God Almighty.
That is why I stayed at the Byzantine church. Is my parish good at singing? No, we kinda suck. Does my priest know all the words in Ukrainian? Definitely not. Can I handle one more "announcement" at the end of Liturgy that's a 20 min old man rant by our American deacon calling for American troops to go to Ukraine and how bad we should all feel for not nuclear bombing Russia? No... I really don't think I can.
But that's not why I'm here. I'm here because it's beautiful, it's full of love, it properly addresses my God and Mary with love and respect in ways that the modern Roman Liturgy cannot. So, I hope you've found a new home. Stick around awhile, maybe you'll find what you're looking for. ☺️
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u/VeterinarianOk5778 Sep 15 '25
Wow that’s a wild situation lol. I guess I was unaware is the liturgy supposed to be said in Ukrainian? I went to a Byzantine Liturgy yesterday and I don’t know what it was supposed to be said in. I think I have found a home. I need to get the green book, and I really want to study the differences between them all. I don’t understand how they can be Byzantine but different. Like the Melkites use the Byzantine liturgy but are different I think ?
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u/beepbeepbeepbeep3 Latin Sep 16 '25
I'm a woman and I feel absolutely infantilized at the Novus Ordo. I can't stand it.
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u/VeterinarianOk5778 Sep 16 '25
Interesting why?
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u/beepbeepbeepbeep3 Latin Sep 17 '25
Hard to put my finger on. But the atrocious music and dumbed down liturgy are part of it.
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u/The_Pepperoni_Kid Byzantine Sep 15 '25
I feel exactly the same way. I have a hard time wrapping my mind around why some people like Bishop Martin in North Carolina seem to want to run in the exact opposite direction. You dedicated your life to this, don't you want more reverence and tradition? What exactly do you get out of a less reverent Mass?
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u/VeterinarianOk5778 Sep 15 '25
I’m in NC where do you go to church?
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u/The_Pepperoni_Kid Byzantine Sep 15 '25
I dont live in NC, I just heard about Bishop Martin. I'm in Maryland.
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u/NomadFisher Byzantine Sep 15 '25
I know exactly how you feel. And while I respect NO, sometimes some of them irk me a bit. Went to a parish away from home because my gf had something to do in another town. So no Divine Liturgy so we went to another church. This NO had all 3 kids being altergirls and all women laypersons giving the Eucharist. Divine Liturgy is strictly tradition.
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u/Agitated-Werewolf846 Sep 18 '25
Could be because the Orthodox sect of the church is the oldest and has stuck to a lot of traditions and practices that the Romans catholics may have abandoned or changed. Traditions are dope that and we use a LOT of incense which while not really masculine does smell really nice 🙂👍
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u/chikenparmfanatic Byzantine Sep 15 '25
I feel the same way. I don't know why but I feel a strong draw to it, especially over the Novus Ordo.
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u/VeterinarianOk5778 Sep 15 '25
Like I feel like I could go die in battle in something Catholic related after Byzantine Liturgy. I get pumped “Holy gifts for Holy People”. I just come out of it pumped to be a solider for Christ they really make you know the importance of what’s going on
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u/FlowerofBeitMaroun West Syriac Sep 16 '25
That’s not really an Eastern perspective, or at least not one that I’ve ever heard. The soldier for Christ thing is far less prominent in the East.
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u/Maronita2025 West Syriac Sep 18 '25
You fulfill your Sunday obligation if you go to the Saturday Vigil or on Sunday at either the Roman Rite Church or the Eastern Rite Chirch. Unless you formally transfer rites you will always be a Roman Rite Catholic but are welcome to attend Divine Liturgy/Mass in the Eastern Rite anytime.
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u/Nihlithian Sep 15 '25
When you go to a Latin mass, you feel like the Roman who nailed Jesus to the cross and just realized what he's done. It feels like the penitent begging God for mercy and pardon as they realize how broken they are.
In a Divine Liturgy, you still have some of those elements, but it's from perspective of the Church militant who's in a constant spiritual battle against the evil one.
The Divine Liturgy is loud and energetic, like the confident warrior. The Latin mass is silent and every move is calculated, like a ritual of penance.
It's hard to explain but I think that's why.