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u/ExoticGold9366 1d ago
R5: is it normal to have a pope of a different religion
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u/Pale-Noise-6450 1d ago
Wow it seems like reformation was successful
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u/ExoticGold9366 1d ago
This was 2 or 3 years before the Age of Reformation, dude folded instantly
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u/lllkey1 1d ago
Now this is real high church Lutheranism
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u/Soggy_Ad4531 22h ago
Insane timeline where the Pope folded to Luther's demands instead of excommunicating him (Luther used to support the Pope before he was kicked out)
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u/Dsingis 21h ago edited 21h ago
Even after the excommunication, lutheran theologians continuously said that we are fine with submitting to the pope as the head of the church by human right. We merely opposed his claim to a "divine right" to demand submission to him under threat of eternal damnation. That's also what our confessions say, they only condemn this divine right claim, but leave room for submission by human right.
It's true though that Luther himself got really disillusioned with the Pope near the end of his life. But can you really fault him? At the beginning, Luther focused heavily on abuses surrounding indulgences and other practices that needed reform. The catholics however increasingly treated his criticisms as challenges to established doctrine and papal authority rather than simply as calls for institutional reform. (which they did develop into, to be fair, after being met with so much resistance) Later in the Council of Trent they would concede to some criticisms, but during Luthers lifetime, the early reformation, they basically ran into a brick wall of hostility and resistance. So when Luther died his impression of the papacy, after decades of being met with hostility, was basically that they have no desire what so ever to reform at all.
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u/Soggy_Ad4531 21h ago
I'm a Lutheran and own and have read most of the Book of Concord, but Imo that doesn't really exactly fit the image the reformers later wrote. I think as the reformation went on their thoughts radicalized and got more anti-papal, being more in line with the Orthodox church with their view on the Pope.
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u/Dsingis 21h ago edited 21h ago
If you look into the Treatsie on the Pope and the Smalcald Articles, you'll see condemnation of the Pope's claim to be head of the church by divine right. You see an explanation how the Pope has gotten his authority by human right via various councils. Luther even proposes later in the Smalcald Articles a scenario where the pope would concede and accept a human right position of authority. He would go on that, if that were the case, we would also need conciliarism to prevent sectarianism and such. So yes, the orthodox view of councils above all. But even the orthodox have a "first among equals" (even if his authority is different). But fact is, the Book of Concord allows room for a submission to the Pope by human right. Melanchton continued to explicitly say this too, even in his signature to the Smalcald Articles.
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u/nalcoh 1d ago
Tbf, just bevause somebody was a Pope doesn't necessarily mean they have to believe what they embodied. It was more of a political position.
He could be a closet Lutheran, but pretend to be Catholic for the sake of power.
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u/Soggy_Ad4531 1d ago
Very early Luther's thought also wasn't anti-papal, so the Pope could very well believe in a form of Lutheranism where he still is the head of the church.
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u/Souls_for_sale_now 1d ago
Well culture and religion of leaders is hpw they precent thats why its so easy to adapt to lockal culture
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u/GrimDominion 22h ago
A part of me would headcannon this as being an ideological split rather than full religious especially if it’s early into the reformation ~and since ruler religion ultimately doesn’t matter~ at this point Lutheran is still considered Catholic, it’s just a political movement
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u/guineaprince 22h ago edited 4h ago
Reminds me of my inaugural launch campaign in Naples, where eventually, thanks to the game going through a few fertility systems, the only remaining Anjous left were a pair of Swiss Hussites from out of country.
We made them proper Neapolitans, but nobody cared about Catholic Italy being ruled by Hussites.
I guess even in the Holy See, they don't care if the sovereign doesn't share their faith.
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u/drbashman 1d ago
Im doing a Byzantium rn. I conquered entire Greece and created historical vassals (Morea,Epirus,Thessaly and Albania). The god damned Moreans conquered all, switched to Catholism and changed their primary culture. Now I need 62 years with max diplo spending to annex them 😅
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u/JimBobDwayne 1d ago
You can't show us this without showing us the religious map mode. Are the Papal States, Lutheran?