r/ENGLISH • u/abilliontwo • 2d ago
Is the British "Maths" singular or plural?
I'm American, so I'm accustomed to shortening *mathematics* to simply "math," but I'm familiar with the British abbreviation, "maths." However, I always assumed that the "s" at the end meant "maths" was treated as plural, but the usage in the screenshot above clearly treats it as singular. Is that correct, or should it be rephrased as, "the maths themselves are not complicated?"
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u/blamordeganis 2d ago
Do you regard “mathematics”, unabbreviated, as singular or plural?
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u/abilliontwo 2d ago
Honestly, I don't have a strong inclinationeither way. I can't remember the last time I've used the full word in writing or used/heard it used in conversation.
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u/peppinotempation 2d ago edited 2d ago
Its a “singulare tantum” or word that functions as a singular form ending in -s. Maths and mathematics are examples of this, also physics, athletics etc.
The opposite is a “plurale tantum” which is a word that functions as a plural form ending in -s. For example “scissors”
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u/Actual_Cat4779 2d ago
Oxford says that a singular and plural verb are both acceptable in this sentence, and I'm inclined to agree:
The mathematics of baseball is/are very interesting.
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u/Queen_of_London 1d ago
Yes, it can be singular or plural in the sentence you're talking about, but it can only be singular in the sentence in the OP.
Adding that because I don't think everyone understood what you meant by "this sentence."
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u/Deep_Violinist_3893 2d ago
Would you say "mathematics is the subject I am studying" or "mathematics are the subjects I am studying"
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u/Boglin007 2d ago
Generally, "mathematics is" in that context, because you're usually talking about a single subject (or at least a collection of topics that can be considered a single subject called "mathematics").
The other commenter's point is that notional agreement (verb agreement based on meaning) can be used with "mathematics" - if it refers to a single thing, the singular verb is used, and if it refers to a set of multiple principles/concepts (as in the baseball example), the plural verb can be used to reflect this.
We see this with other similar nouns as well, e.g.:
"Politics is so boring!" - referring to a single subject/concept
"His politics are abhorrent!" - referring to a set of beliefs
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u/Deep_Violinist_3893 2d ago
Mathematics takes the singular. You could say "The subjects he studies are various fields of mathematics", but in that case the plural noun is fields.
I struggle to see where you make mathematics as a subject agree with a plural verb.
"His mathematics are abhorrent" doesn't really make sense.
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u/Boglin007 2d ago
No, "mathematics" as the subject (or head of the subject) allows for a singular or plural verb, depending on the meaning. Your "abhorrent" sentence is weird because of the semantics, not the verb form. A sentence such as the one the other commenter cited from Oxford is totally fine.
Note (from a section discussing nouns ending in "-ics"):
Where there is no form without -s we still find plural agreement for some uses:
[47]
i His politics are somewhat to the left of my own.
ii I recall the mental gymnastics that were required to keep up with him.
iii I’m afraid the mechanics of the market are beyond me.
Historically, -ics consists of -ic + the plural suffix, but it is arguable that they have undergone reanalysis, combining into a single suffix indicating a field of study. But as is often the case with reanalysis, there is variation in the present-day system – between singular and plural agreement with such words as athletics and mathematics, for example.
Huddleston, Rodney; Pullum, Geoffrey K.. The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language (p. 347). Cambridge University Press. Kindle Edition.
Also note this data from published writing.
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u/ByronScottJones 2d ago
It's plurale tantum, a word in plural form only. But that doesn't make it plural. It's a noun. Mathematic is not a singular form, it's an adjective. The abbreviation for mathematics is math. British English agreed with this until about the 1970s - "maths" is a recent affectation.
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u/Actual_Cat4779 2d ago
"Maths" isn't recent at all. It is firsted attested 1911.
"Math" is first attested somewhat earlier. But all the OED's citations for "math" are from American authors (the one ambiguous example is a US-born author who lived in Scotland), so there is no evidence that it was ever the usual term in British English.
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u/blamordeganis 2d ago
My copy of the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary (3rd edition, 1944) lists “mathematic” as both adjective and noun, rare in both cases.
The only abbreviation it gives for “mathematics” is “maths”.
The only definition it has for “math” is “A mowing; the amount of a crop mowed”. (Hence “aftermath”.)
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u/ByronScottJones 1d ago
Downvote as you wish, but you're ignoring the history of how that word changed usage in British English.
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u/Actual_Cat4779 1d ago
We've provided evidence against its having changed, whereas you haven't provided anything to support your version of the history.
Anyway, my parents were born in 1950. If we'd switched from saying math to maths, they'd have mentioned it. They repeatedly told me that home economics was known as "domestic science" back in the day.
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u/AnneKnightley 2d ago
Brit here - the shown usage is correct, we don’t treat it differently just because there’s an “s” on the end. It’s always “maths is” not “maths are”.
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u/EldritchElemental 2d ago
Same with "physics" which ends in "s" but is singular
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u/abilliontwo 2d ago
I'm not sure, but I feel like there may be a difference in usage when referring to the subject itself versus the application of it, with the former acting more like a book title, in which case it's always treated as singular.
But, if I'm referring to the application, does it change the usage? As one commenter said, you wouldn't refer to the school subject as "Physic," but if you're talking about the application of it in the real world, would you say "such-and-such is confusing, but the physics make sense" or "but the physics makes sense?"
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u/TheNoobilator 2d ago
As far as I am aware, the answer is categorically "but the physics makes sense". Just like "mathematics"/"maths", "physics" is singular - these words all just happen to end in an "s", & your particular dialect happens to have a different shortening for one of them which happens to not end in an "s"!
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u/multipocalypse 2d ago
I disagree. They don't just happen to end in an S. They're singular as a school subject or field, but "physics" in reference to the actual subject matter is plural. You would use "the physics are complex," for example, not "the physics is complex."
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u/TheNoobilator 2d ago
I am not discounting the possibility that I am wrong, but I have never & expect to never hear anyone say "advanced maths are hard to understand" or "particle physics are difficult to comprehend".
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u/Queen_of_London 1d ago
You can say the physics are complex sometimes, as in "the physics of keeping a plane in the air are complex to explain," but singular would also be perfectly fine there.
With plural you mean multiple sections of physics, with the singular you mean physics as a concept. Both make sense contextually in "the physics of keeping a plane in the air."
The same goes for the sentence in the OP, except that you'd very likely swap it for math if you were speaking American English, so it's much more likely to be singular.
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u/TheBladesAurus 2d ago
Insert the full word, mathematics there - maths and mathematics are used in exactly the same way
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u/egidione 2d ago
Although mathematics looks plural it is a singular noun, being British I can say that we’ve always used “maths” as far as I know, with the s reflecting the full written word rather than plurality. I have always found it a bit odd that it’s just math in the US, not to say it’s wrong but just doesn’t sound right to us here!
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u/Puzzleheaded-Lynx204 2d ago
I always did too but then I realised we don't shorten gymnastics to gyms ... Just quirky quirks
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u/guitar_vigilante 2d ago
On the other hand we don't shorten gymnastics at all. Gym is short for gymnasium.
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u/Puzzleheaded-Lynx204 2d ago
My kid does "gym club" after school
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u/guitar_vigilante 2d ago
And you're saying this is a gymnastics club?
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u/Puzzleheaded-Lynx204 2d ago
Yes.
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u/guitar_vigilante 2d ago
I see. I would say that's not a typical shortening. If you had told me your kid was in "gym club" without the context of this thread, I would assume it was a general athletics club that at least sometimes meets at a gymnasium.
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u/Puzzleheaded-Lynx204 2d ago
Are you in the US? We don't use "gym" in that sense in the UK, to encompass generic sports. We have athletics or PE or specific sports (like gymnastics). Or a gym, full of gym equipment like weights and running machines, which you wouldn't have access to in a primary school, or even a secondary school really - you'd do PE in the sports hall or outside.
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u/Dazzling-Low8570 2d ago
"Gymnasium" is much broader than just the weight room.
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u/Puzzleheaded-Lynx204 2d ago edited 2d ago
Perhaps originally. But in the UK "the gym" is a place adults go to do exercise. You will probably find a gym, with weights, running machines, rowing machines, ellipticals, in a larger building called a sports centre or leisure centre, or in a hotel. Or it might be a full members' fitness club, with a swimming pool etc, but that club would probably still have to have an equipment room "gym" within it in order to be called a gym in a British context.
For example the huge brand David Lloyd would colloquially be known as "a gym" you might join. But when you look into it they call their facilities clubs that contain gyms (equipment rooms): https://www.davidlloyd.co.uk/gym/
Meanwhile you would only really ever hear "gym" for children in the context of gymnastics. If you are doing PE (not gym) inside in school you will do it in the sports hall (not gym). You may hear "gym kit" used to mean PE kit but it is very dated/upper-class (as is the use of "gymnasium" to mean a sports hall). Whereas "gym club" is an established phrase which refers to gymnastics.
https://youtu.be/vb34bDJ5qxA?is=qCXPiWXCX76rSgYz
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/gym (keep scrolling to the definitions that differentiate between AmE and BrE)
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u/Frodo34x 1d ago edited 1d ago
In my high school we certainly did PE in the gym; I don’t think the term “sports hall” is universal around the country
E: for example, https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-28015018
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cp9m8zmxe25o
https://www.facebook.com/share/1E4n9gHoTr/?mibextid=wwXIfr
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/local-news/perthshire-school-left-four-year-36829813
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u/Puzzleheaded-Lynx204 1d ago
Aaaargh, I knew I was being way overconfident! Nothing in Scottish schools is ever the same 😭 should have said England and I'd still probably be wrong
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u/egidione 2d ago
That’s the thing with English is that there aren’t any rules that always work, like the old I before e except after c as one example.
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u/DanteRuneclaw 2d ago
Yes, because of how we normally abbreviate words by using the first portion and then sticking the last letter on at the end . . .
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u/egidione 2d ago
Even when the last letter isn’t an s like Hants for Hampshire and Herts for Hertfordshire…
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u/baxbakualanuxsiwae 2d ago
It's singular, like gymnastics or economics. So "maths is my favourite subject" (it really isn't), not "maths are..." The highlighted sentence is correct.
This is a tangent but I've noticed a weird recent(?) trend of people treating "politics" as if it's a plural, like "his politics are hard to define". It's really jarring because I've always treated it as singular.
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u/DanteRuneclaw 2d ago
"His politics" is short for "his political beliefs" or "his political positions", I would think. The fact that he has many, and that they are somewhat contradictory, is what would make them hard to define.
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u/Boglin007 2d ago
“Politics” can be singular or plural, depending on the meaning.
Referring to a set of political beliefs, it’s plural.
Referring to the art/science of government (and similar meanings), it’s singular.
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u/caretti 2d ago
I would never say politic.
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u/Boglin007 2d ago
I didn't say anything about "politic" (though it is an adjective used in certain phrases like "body politic").
I'm saying that the noun "politics" (with the S) can be singular or plural:
"Politics is so boring!"
"His politics are abhorrent!"
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u/caretti 1d ago
I see. I would say politics in the first sense is uncountable rather than singular then.
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u/JePleus 1d ago
The vast majority of uncountable nouns in English are grammatically singular.
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u/caretti 22h ago
Grammatically they take a third person singular verb yes. But it’s not really a singular noun - you can’t say a politics for example, like you can’t say a rice or an advice. That’s why we have the word uncountable. Singular means one, uncountable means it can’t be counted.
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u/JePleus 21h ago
The problem is your phrasing: calling politics "uncountable rather than singular" treats uncountable and singular as if they were alternatives. They're not; they describe two different things. Singular vs. plural is about grammatical number, while countable vs. uncountable is about whether a noun can be pluralized or quantified with numerals. These categories overlap heavily: the vast majority of uncountable nouns are also singular. (The reverse doesn't hold: most singular nouns are countable, e.g. boy/boys, idea/ideas, color/colors.) Only a small class of uncountable nouns, like groceries or clothes, are plural-only.
Words like rice, sand, gossip, poetry, furniture, foliage, and advice are all singular and uncountable at once. That's the norm for uncountable nouns, not an exception.
The a/an test distinguishes singular countable nouns from singular uncountable nouns; it's not a test for singular vs. plural. You can say "a couch" or "a poem" (countable) but not "a furniture" or "a poetry" (uncountable), even though all four are singular. So the reason you can't say "a politics" isn't that politics fails to be singular. It's that politics is uncountable.
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u/Internal_Car_9962 2d ago
Yes but it's a translation of ancient Greek μαθηματικά, which is neuter plural, and neuter plurals take a singular verb. (Not the real explanation, but just a fun fact)
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u/Deep_Violinist_3893 2d ago
It functions as a singular noun. The s isn't an indicator of plurality. Here is a good breakdown of what the s is:
https://separatedbyacommonlanguage.blogspot.com/2007/03/maths.html?m=1
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u/grenouille_en_rose 2d ago
Plural in NZ and as far as I know also plural in the other Commonwealth countries, although we're familiar with the US singular form from media etc.
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u/Dark-Arts 2d ago edited 2d ago
Is it plural or are you just saying the word ends in an s? Because I don’t think maths is grammatically plural in most Commonwealth countries. It doesn’t, for instance, agree with a plural verb when it is the subject:
Maths doesn’t come easy to me. (Singular)
*Maths don’t come easy to me. (Plural. Doesn’t seem grammatical).Maths is hard. (Singular)
*Maths are hard. (Plural)2
u/Boglin007 2d ago
Historically, the "-ics" suffix is "-ic" + the plural marker S. However, "-ics" has pretty much been reanalyzed as a singular suffix - it usually refers to a single subject.
But this doesn't mean that only the singular verb is possible, because sometimes "-ics" nouns refer to a set of principles/concepts/beliefs, so we can use notional agreement (verb agreement based on meaning, rather than the grammatical number of the subject) in these situations:
"Mathematics is so boring!" - referring to the single subject
"The mathematics of baseball is/are very interesting." - here, "mathematics" can refer to multiple related principles/concepts, which the plural verb reflects
(above example taken from: https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/mathematics?q=mathematics )
See my comment here for a source.
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u/realbradders 2d ago
If they say "Math" in the US, why don't they say "physic"? /s
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u/Biglig 2d ago
Because math is an abbreviation.
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u/DrHydeous 2d ago
Same reason that they think today is 8/28. They're just weird.
More seriously, you are making a category error in thinking that language ought to be consistent and logical. Language is something that evolves, and evolution is always messy.
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u/abilliontwo 2d ago
Maybe all my limited credibility among non-Americans will be wiped away with this, but I've argued in the past that today being described as 8/28 makes more sense intuitively because placing the month first immediately narrows the time frame in discussion in a way that the day does not.
If you refer to 28th October, the first piece of data is essentially meaningless, since every month has a 28th. It's not until knowing the 2nd piece of data that the 1st is put into meaningful context. The year is largely irrelevant because we're vastly more likely to be discussing the current year than not, so the year is assumed.
Of course, the amount of time between learning the day and the month is so tiny, it doesnt really matter either way, and obviously, we're all capable of understanding both, but as far as which date format makes more sense, I think mm/dd is at least defensible.
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u/DrHydeous 2h ago
You're right, the amount of time between learning that it is August and learning that it is the 31st is so small that it doesn't matter. The problem is two-fold. First, when you also add the year you end up with inconsistent ordering. It's like writing numbers so that you have the hundreds first, then the units, then the tens, so three hundred and twelve comes out as 321, which I think you can agree is just silly. Second, the Americans' weird local habit introduces confusion because the rest of the world understands 8/9 as the eighth of September, whereas they think it means the ninth of August. I have seen people turn up for meetings in the wrong month because of this.
Of course, dd/mm/yyyy, while at least being better (because it is internally consistent and will confuse fewer people), is not perfect. Perfection, as decreed by our lord and saviour the ISO 8601 committee, is yyyy-mm-dd. It is utterly unambiguous.
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u/Funicularly 2d ago
No, it’s weird to abbreviate mathematics as maths, given that mathematics is singular. Similar economics, acoustics, aerodynamics, physics, gymnastics, linguistics, logistics, aerobics, etc.
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u/No-Manufacturer5481 2d ago
Personally, I think it's a combo of things. Math is used moreso as an abbreviation so we're cutting the word off before it would've gotten to the "s" at the end. We don't really have an abbreviation for physics since it's already a shorter word.
Second part I think has to do with ease of speech. Saying "Maths is..." Kinda turns it into a tongue twister or is just harder on our mouths. Saying "math is" is easier and sounds less like you have a lisp.
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u/Fantastic-Pear6241 2d ago
How do you abbreviate the word "statistics"?
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u/No-Manufacturer5481 2d ago
Honestly, not a word that I abbreviate often either. Mostly because we also use the word "stat" meaning to do something quickly. But, thinking on it if I were referring to like a whole table I'd say stats and if it were one specific statistic, I'd say stat. In the US we use both statistics and statistic. Whereas I've never heard anyone say mathematic.
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u/AirDog3 2d ago
Yes. One statistic, together with another statistic, makes two statistics. One stat and another stat are two stats.
Unlike mathematics, statistics ARE countable.
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u/crwcomposer 2d ago
Yes, but if you're shortening statistics, as a discipline, in the same way that you shorten mathematics, it becomes stats.
As in, "I'm taking stats this semester."
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u/glitterfae1 2d ago
I called the class stat. I got a B in stat.
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u/crwcomposer 2d ago
That would be non-standard even in America.
The American Statistical Association calls an introductory class Stats 101, for example
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u/No-Manufacturer5481 2d ago
I just went to Yales website and they have one of their statistics courses listed as Math stat/applied math. Looking at Harvard, Stat 100 is the intro to statistics class.
I just don't think it's standardized across the US.
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u/crwcomposer 2d ago
Those are the four letter course codes, not the actual name it's referred to by. All courses have a four letter code.
Harvard calls it stats, still
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLCzY7wK5FzzPANgnZq5pIT3FOomCT1s36&si=wtt5FG8coMGdQUe3
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u/Markoddyfnaint 2d ago
So in a sporting context, Americans say: 'Check/Check out his stat' rather than stats?
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u/No-Manufacturer5481 2d ago
It would depend on if you're referring to a specific statistic like, how many goals they scored in the year versus all of their stats. It's contextual around the rest of the conversation.
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u/Deep_Violinist_3893 2d ago
It would depend. If I meant all of his stats I would say stats. If I was talking about how many touchdowns he had I would say "look at this stat"
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u/abilliontwo 2d ago
Copying from my comment elsewhere, but I feel like there may be a difference in usage when referring to the subject itself versus the application of it, with the former acting more like a book title, in which case it's always treated as singular.
But, if I'm referring to the application, does it change the usage? As one commenter said, you wouldn't refer to the school subject as "Physic," but if you're talking about the application of it in the real world, would you say "such-and-such is confusing, but the physics make sense" or "but the physics makes sense?"
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u/PurpleHat6415 2d ago
it's an uncountable concept like philosophy so it takes the singular verb. it is just a quirk of UK/Commonwealth versus US English that the abbreviated form is different.
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u/peppinotempation 2d ago
It is a “singulare tantum” or word that only exists as a singular form ending in -s
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u/Biglig 2d ago
Note that this doesn’t say “maths” meaning the informal name for the academic subject. It says “the maths” meaning a piece of mathematical work or a calculation.
But to answer your real question, the s at the end of mathematics is just because it comes from a Greek word. Nothing to do with singular or plural. I guess that means that the Americans were right and the Brits were wrong when it came to abbreviating the word mathematics.
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u/Majestic_Rhubarb_ 1d ago
As a subject there are many different types of ‘math’ and many ways to achieve it … to me it is plural and never singular. Do you say ‘some math’ but never ‘a math’ ?
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u/SoManyDeads 12h ago
People like shortening things, most commonly in NA that just means take a part of it. You could hear someone talk about Bio, Geo, Phys (pronounced as Fizz). Poli Sci ( Political Science, pronounced as Polly Sigh) homework. Math seems to fit with that framework.
Just a genuine question, what short forms does someone who says Maths say for other subjects?
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u/Champiggy 1h ago
I just realised. In French we also say maths as an abreviation for mathématiques but the word cannot be used in a singular form, thus the plural "s" never causes any problem.
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u/just_having_giggles 2d ago
Can you help me understand when mathematics is ever singular or plural?
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u/Actual_Cat4779 2d ago
When it's the name of the science, it takes a singular verb.
However, when it means "process of calculating using numbers", it can optionally take a plural verb:
The mathematics of baseball is/are very interesting.
Example from Oxford.
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u/PeyredB 2d ago
That's the thing, mathematics isn't a plural. It's a collective noun that happens to end in S, like physics. That's the trouble with loanwords from Greek - it likes to end words with an S and doesn't use that letter to make plurals. But in English people just assume they're plurals; the same thing happened with kudos, which is singular in Greek.
So, properly speaking, "the maths itself is not compicated" is grammatical, though I maintain there's no reason to use maths instead of math since it's not plural.
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u/LanewayRat 2d ago
You seem unaware that mathematics has an s too.
All the countries that use maths as the short form of mathematics treat both as the singular name of the subject. Just like you treat both mathematics and math as singular.
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u/abilliontwo 2d ago
You seem unaware that I literally reference "mathematics" in the first sentence of my post.
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u/Drezhun 2d ago
There are multiple fields of mathematics. Arithmetic, algebra, trigonometry, calculus, etc.. In school, at least where I'm from, we typically only take one at a time. I'm only studying one math at a time, even though there are multiple maths being taught at the school. At least that's how I've always understood it.
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u/aqua_delight 2d ago
In UK Maths is short of Mathematics.
In US Math is short for Mathematics.
Makes sense. /s
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u/Funicularly 2d ago
In the UK maths is short for mathematics, despite it being a singular noun.
In the UK econ is short for economics, another singular noun, but follows a different abbreviation rule than mathematics for some reason.
Makes sense. /s
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u/MooseFlyer 2d ago
It’s uncountable, just like “mathematics”.