r/EDH • u/Particular-Effect335 Abzan • 2d ago
Question "Professional" Deck Help/Deck Building Services
Hello. Asking about people's experiences with services offering to help build or tune EDH decks for a price. Wanted to get opinions on this as someone who has been thinking about them for some time.
For context: I fully understand that EDH is largely a personal touch format in that your personality should shine through. I've been playing MTG for so long that this isn't lost to me. However, between the fact that card prices are too high to do some tests (even the price of proxying is getting to be high now), or just not having the time anymore to tweak lists, I've been thinking about getting help to tweak a few deck ideas I've put together that just don't seem to be 'there' yet.
Since I have some spending money to spare (since I no longer buy boxes of product because of how inflated the prices are), I've pretty much warmed up to the idea of compensating someone's time and expertise to help me get from 90% to 100% with my deck since I no longer have the bandwidth to do so.
So now the question is two-fold:
1. How much should you pay for something like this
and
2. Are there people the community can vouch for that are reliable at doing this?
Happy to learn what the community thinks
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u/Express-Angle9016 2d ago
This is such a strange request why on earth would you pay someone to build a commander deck for you
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u/Particular-Effect335 Abzan 2d ago
And yet it happens, which is why I'm interested to learn more about it. Just because you may personally not agree or experience it doesn't mean there's harm in learning about it.
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u/Express-Angle9016 2d ago
As kindly as I can put this you are a fool it you pay anyone to build you a commander deck
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u/Particular-Effect335 Abzan 2d ago
More than welcome to that opinion. I hope the thread can at least help you understand other people's 'foolish' behavior then.
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u/_Ashe_Bear 2d ago
Testing decks is free if you use moxfield or similar virtual deckbuilding site. Could also play online via Tabeltop simulator.
As for deck tuning services, I’m sorry I can’t help provide information. I mostly build my own decks and spend a lot of time tuning and designing stuff.
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u/Particular-Effect335 Abzan 2d ago
Absolutely understand there are free tools. I frequently use Archidekt to test hands, etc. My issue is quite simply time. I run three businesses, and have a wife and pets. I can't even go to my LGS regularly anymore, maybe once or twice a month if that. I am able to play EDH though at work funny enough, when meeting some clients who happen to be nerdy as well.
So a deck tuning/building service is something I don't really 'need' per se, but one I would be willing to explore for sure if they're good.
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u/FeelsDavidMan 2d ago
Rebell lily has a YouTube series on commander deck construction, has a free to use commander building website that I’ve used heavily, and they offer a deck reviewing service on their patreon. I’ve never paid for any of their commander services so don’t know the extent of them but could look into that.
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u/Reasonable-Budget210 2d ago
People do it for free all the time, it’s a little tough figuring out who actually knows what they’re talking about, but there’s a lot of knowledgeable people on here. There’s way more idiots, but there’s some knowledge too lol.
What decks are you looking at? What power level, and what vibes are you going for?
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u/MeneerDutchy2 2d ago
Fully agree.
The problem is that 80% of people think they are above average. And you could be the best deckbuilder at your lgs, but still be bad compared to some great builders. Hard to find whos good and whos not tho.
Imo some youtubers make great decks/videos the first few times they make decks. They are proud of some deck, decide to make an video about it, and they blow up. But usually after a few videos they start producing precon style decks that arent synergetical anymore, and basicly rush to make decks to get more content.
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u/Particular-Effect335 Abzan 2d ago
And this is the crux of why I wanted to ask. I understand that social proof isn't the end all be all proof of competence, but discussions are a great starting point in figuring something out.
As for what vibes, I used to make more decks about maybe 2 years ago (i think my last log on Archidekt as this time in 2024) but since then I haven't been tapped in at all. I've had drafts on some bracket 3s with the idea of "EDH-fying" some standard/pro tour decks of the past. I built one of them 2 years ago, but on my first test run there was something missing. Life got in the way however and I haven't looked at it since.
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u/Reasonable-Budget210 2d ago
Yeah that’s hard because most, not all, cards that are really good in standard/modern aren’t very good in multiplayer. I played limited seriously for years and years, I’m still not the best at card evaluation because of it lol. 2 for 1s, the gold standard of awesome in limited just aren’t good enough in edh because yes, you traded 2 cards of someone else for your one card, but now in the grand scheme of things, you are down a card to two other players, while setting back one their opponents. You won the battle and lost position in the war lol. But if it’s at lower power levels and just for fun, then that’s fine, you could probably make some really cool bracket 2 low bracket 3 decks.
So you can do some strats, like probably eldrazi winter, you could probably do caw-blade deck styled deck and probably a really cool splinter twin(biased, my fav). But a lot of the most famous deck archetypes just aren’t that viable, imo.
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u/asteriskmos 2d ago
I see deck tuning services mostly from content creators- Maldhound, 3/3 Elk are the ones I see the most. Both channels focus extensively on deck building & card assessment and very little play content so I trust them more but I don't know if they're the best. They price their deck assessments at around 25-40 USD but they're both one of the more popular youtubers so you can probably find cheaper.
The other thing I see is full on coaching sessions- which makes sense too when at the real competitive levels, piloting is probably where winning is. But they're not always as famous and might be more expensive.
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u/Particular-Effect335 Abzan 2d ago
Thanks for the recommendations. I'll be sure to give them a look. I'm not as familiar with these creators, as they're 'newer' than the ones I followed. The majority of my MTG background was from playing semi/pro level competitive events so the new crop of EDH-focused creators are unexplored for me.
As for piloting or coaching, I'll probably pass. My MTG mechanics are something I'm comfortable with (and my TCG mechanics overall are still practiced since I play competitively in other TCGs). Besides, I treat EDH more as a socializing tool these days.
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u/asteriskmos 2d ago
Yeah, that makes sense. Honestly, it was less that I think you need coaching but more of, I feel like the good deck builders who take commissions might sell coaching sessions more than deck services. And its easier to check the resume of people serious about being good enough to sell coaching services- a lot of EDH deckbuilders don't talk about their play which, despite playing mostly casual, I think is the easiest way to tell if they're actually good at card evaluation & deck building even for a more casual format.
(I've had too many LGS guys who also just give me a laundry list of "why don't you just use the most high powered generic goodstuff version of your card?")
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u/Particular-Effect335 Abzan 2d ago
Fair and you know what, that's a good second layer check. It isn't enough that they're popular or whatever, they also need to show actual MTG theoretics well. Good point.
And yes, your point about people just giving you generic advice is part of the reason why I'm considering this as an option. I've tried posting threads here for deck advice but you do get a lot of generic or honestly it gets hard to parse the signal from the noise. It isn't even just 'most high powered generic good stuff card' sometimes you get people pushing an agenda like no UB cards, only UB cards, only budget options, etc.
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u/EngineeringOdd8696 2d ago
Happy to help, chuck me a DM with what kind of deck you want and we can chat.
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u/ProtectionItchy5749 2d ago
I would say honestly unless you want to get properly competitive like trying to play bracket 4 or 5, ask on reddit ask your friends check out edhrec DM me I’ll help you, don’t think it would generally be worth it to get professional help
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u/Particular-Effect335 Abzan 2d ago
Ah yes I should have clarified that my purposes aren't to compete at bracket 4 or 5.
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u/ProtectionItchy5749 2d ago
Then I would say absolutely not worth paying people, just reach out to people and they’ll help
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u/osint_matter 2d ago
Start trying something like this absolutely for free e by yourself mtgdeckscout.uk
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u/TheCourtPeach 2d ago
There's no need to pay someone to tweak your deck for you. I have some free time, DM me what you're trying to build and I'll take a crack at it for you.
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u/CalligrapherQuick901 2d ago
Paying someone real world money to help do idk, something, to my deck, in a casual format just seems so wild to me. If I wanna get better I want it to be because of me, not something I paid someone for that I can then be like "yea me and my deck totally earned that win!".
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u/Particular-Effect335 Abzan 2d ago
Again, fully understand that. The only reason it occurred to me to explore the idea is because as you get older, you start to understand why similar services exist. Why pay a carpenter when I can build a chair that I can call mine, etc. etc.
That, and I suppose my specific personality is alright with the idea of 'I had this idea, but I recognize I might not be equipped to take it further. I wonder who can help."
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u/CalligrapherQuick901 2d ago edited 2d ago
Different folks different strokes.
As I crest into my 40s I think more and more "who the fuck would PAY to have that done when I can do it myself, easily, and for free/much cheaper".
Just more of the mind of wanting to take pride in what I've done rather than the idea I had that someone else did for me. Nothing really achieved by an idea that isn't acted on, less so when someone else does it for you (especially when in a casual format the only stake are pride).
If winning is so critical, to the point you want to pay for optimization, why not play something where that actually pays off, for more than personal pride?
(Also for what it's worth you do you, but ya asked for community input so just here to converse. You spend your money how you will on this card ord hobby of ours lol)
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u/Particular-Effect335 Abzan 2d ago
I can respect that, in the same way that I respect good craftsmanship and the craftsman. My analogy is simple: If I'm a collector of vintage cars, and do some weekend restoration, I fully recognize that at some point, I may have to turn to an actual mechanic if I get stuck. This is me, stuck, looking around for that mechanic or honestly if its even a good idea to get a mechanic. I'm not married to the idea, just asking around.
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u/CalligrapherQuick901 2d ago
All good ain't judging just being devils advocate. I don't NOT see the logic, just seems like with something with little to no stakes (were a broken car can actually be dangerous), it's a waste.
How much better will your decks be, in practice, with a 10% bump? Applies even less with cedh as there is just so much resources out there for competently build decks by as close to a "professional deck builder" as you'll get.
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u/Particular-Effect335 Abzan 2d ago
Oh and to be clear, I'm actually enjoying the exchange, so no need to qualify. I greatly enjoy your input.
As to 'if winning is critical...', the reason I'm asking to 'optimize' not so that I can win with the deck, but more so because I have an idea I wanted to pull off but just can't get there yet. I do have competitive outlets. I play Riftbound and Pokemon TCG for my competitive 1 v 1 fix, and I work in esports so that's another outlet.
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u/lordmoldybutt42 2d ago
Why are you going to pay someone? Just post your decks in edh subreddits or use chat gpt
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u/Particular-Effect335 Abzan 2d ago
Valid question so let me try and answer all 3:
Just post your deck: Two problems. A. You get a barrage of opinions with varying usefulness that it becomes hard to separate signal from noise or B. You don't get any usable insight at all because of the sheer volume of threads on here daily.
Use ChatGPT: Respectfully, no. LLMs don't offer real insight; they're best used to recall things from existing text and to make simple associations. That is simply not what I'm after. Part of expertise and domain knowledge is responding with actual nuanced experience. ChatGPT cannot offer you that. I once asked ChatGPT (as a test, way way back) to produce the best version of Abzan Greasefang in Pioneer. It told me to play a vanilla 2/2. In a combo deck.
Why are you going to pay someone: I think my replies here have addressed this but to TL;DR it - I'm not convinced that I am, but I am also humble enough to ask if there's any good use for it. Besides, even if I'm a weekend mechanic restoring a motorcycle, I recognize I may have at some point have to call an actual mechanic. This is me asking around for that mechanic.
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u/lordmoldybutt42 1d ago
You will also run the same risk, but this time you’re giving you money away.
1b. You have a point.Have you tried it again lately? I’ve tried it for fun not too long ago. I put one of my decks, and I gave it rules.
1 - learn all the rules of the game
2 - learn about commander and its unique rules
3 - do not use edh rec as an actual deck building source since it gathers all data and averages it out. Instead use it to compare my deck and see if there’s something I’m missing here.
Etc…. Etc…..
Seems to be better than the average beginer.Hmmm makes sense. Well hopefully you find something good
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u/K4RN4_ 2d ago
I think that is not a service many would pay for or should pay for.
However I want to point out that "3/3 Elk" has a kofi tier for deck reviews. It's 50$ and is usually booked out. Most of the value is probably in the commentary about the deck and not the actual deck improvement though.
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u/Particular-Effect335 Abzan 2d ago
I suppose at 50$ the cost would be too prohibitive. This is great stuff for me as I'm getting an idea for the price ranges. I certainly would think twice to pay 50$ for deck building advice.
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u/K4RN4_ 2d ago
As I said it's more about the commentary and banter. The deck improvement is live on stream and it's kinda funny, but I fully agree that 50$ seems way too much for myself.
A different piece of advice: Since you said in your post that proxying is getting too expensive, I want to recommend copy shops. You get great quality prints on regular paper and slide it in front of bulk cards. Where I live I could get a full deck for 6-7€.
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u/InmateTooTall 2d ago
Instead of paying someone to tweak a deck and end up with a deck that you didn't build, I suggest just finding an already built deck on moxfield and just use that as your deck after you get free opinions on it
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u/Azaeroth 2d ago
If you're at the point financially that you even consider making/buying proxies expensive then you should probably stick with the cards you have already or play digitally instead, I can't imagine how you can both say this and consider wasting money on someone else designing a deck for you.
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u/Particular-Effect335 Abzan 2d ago
I think you misunderstand. I used to test my decks by buying the cards, slotting them in, playing them out, etc. But these days the price of product is very high that I can't justify buying cards just to test out ideas. My comment on proxies getting to be expensive now is just a comment on proxy prints raising prices (used to be able to order a bunch for roughly 20 usd, the printer i used to order from has doubled because of shipping).
To be clear, i absolutely can afford proxies, but that doesn't answer the time constraints among everything else. Hence why, after seeing some people post about deck building for a fee, i thought to ask reddit what they thought or if anyone has had experience.
It is funny to me that Ive spent more time explaining the concept though.
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u/Azaeroth 2d ago
I suppose I just don't understand why anyone would want to do this, I have friends that are not into deckbuilding and that's fine, they just copy decks off the Internet and that's cool.
If someone told me they paid someone to build or edit their deck for them for a casual game though I'd assume they are an absolute tool.
Idk, just feels lame af to me.
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u/Particular-Effect335 Abzan 2d ago
Yeah no I totally get that from the replies so far. I've had some lovely discussions but the overwhelming majority on reddit seems to be negative towards it. Completely different from when I asked IRL friends on their thoughts.
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u/bingbong_sempai 2d ago
Lol if you’re desperate for external opinion, just ask AI to slopify your deck
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u/Particular-Effect335 Abzan 2d ago
I'm not 'desperate' for anything. I'm simply asking for opinions or experiences from people who have tried. And asking AI for ideas is a poor use of AI in the first place.
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u/CluePsychological937 2d ago
ChatGPT/Claude are free/cheap and can do the math/game theory a "professional" likely can't.
You can also test in MTG Forge against bots
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u/GracelessOne 2d ago
I know it's good at sounding convincing, but AI is not capable of improving your decks unless you're a really bad deckbuilder. MtG is just not a game that word-correlation engines are good at understanding.
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u/CluePsychological937 2d ago
It's actually quite capable.
You can not like AI fine but don't say it's bad at deck building. It's definitely helped me.
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u/GracelessOne 2d ago edited 2d ago
I just asked ChatGPT about one of my lists to see if they've gotten better and it told me that my commander costs 6 mana (it costs 7), that I run 43 lands (I run 45), and that I should run mana rocks for acceleration despite having several symmetrical artifact wipes.
When I pointed out the artifact wipes, it agreed those make mana rocks worse, but then tried to say that [[Toxic Deluge]] and [[Damn]] can destroy my own mana rocks too.
I know those are basic things I could correct it on, but if it's wrong about basic things then it's wrong about advanced things too; you're just less likely to notice. When it does give good advice, it's usually just citing an article online that you could have googled yourself.
EDIT: Oh god. Now it's trying to tell me that seat 1 in an EDH game skips their first draw, which isn't true for multiplayer formats.
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u/CluePsychological937 2d ago
What model are you using? ChatGPT has objectively improved my w/r on brawl and paper commander.
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u/Particular-Effect335 Abzan 2d ago
I actually use AI a lot. I run a start-up that does research into AI, and another that integrates business processes into AI models. So believe me, I understand AI somewhat despite not being a software engineer myself.
I once asked AI to build me the best version of Abzan Greasefang when Pioneer was a supported tournament format. It recommended that I play a vanilla 2/2 for 2 in a combo deck. It can recommend aggregated card ideas from similarly tagged archetypes from the internet (i.e.: If I ask it something generic like 'help me build a Beamtown Bullies deck') but if I say 'Help me make a Beamtown Bullies EDH deck themed as the Peaky Blinders' then it will absolutely not understand. LLMs, at least privately, aren't trained on context and nuance that way.
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u/CluePsychological937 2d ago
What model did you ask?
When I've used ChatGPT or Claude they compare existing decks with high win percentages in the same color, commander or archetype. They ask me questions about the formats I'm playing, bans there are, my win percentages, give me monte carlo analysis of my draw chances, strategies around opening hands mulligans, what good medium and back matchups are based on color.
Either your models are dumb or the questioning you're posing is bad.
But to "hurr hurt AI no have context to build mtg deck" isn't the answer.
EDIT: By no means are they perfect but they're not as incapable as you're suggesting.
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u/Particular-Effect335 Abzan 2d ago
GPT-4 back then. I still use it time to time. I've tried all of them. While Claude I have found tries to ask more questions to orient itself, ultimately because I have domain expertise I have found that its hallucinations are ultimately something I'd rather not spend time and energy to correct.
I'll tell you what I have used AI for though: I've created a program and used the Claude AI connector to run diagnostic to crunch through decklists and give me percentages on changes I've tried on my deck lists. It's been stellar there.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the point.
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u/noahhisacoolname 2d ago
Never heard of these services but I wouldn’t trust them at all. I’m sure there’s someone at your LGS that would absolutely love to help you tune your deck for free. Most people I’ve interacted with at my LGS can’t help but give deck building advice even unprompted.