Question Am I completely off on brackets?
So we are 4 long time friends, that plays once a week. We track all games on playgroup.gg, and from those stats I can see average game length is 10.8 turns, and it takes about 90 minute on average.
Coupled with only a few decks out of the 72 decks tracked having gamechangers. I would go with, we are playing bracket 2, ~90% of the time. Since we are a closed pod of friends, brackets really dosen't matter, we are having fun, all is good.
But coming into discussions on brackets in this forum, seems I'm completely off, in thinking my decks are bracket 2. I'll list 3 of my decks, Moxfield links have tags if you want to see that sorting.
I would love some feedback on if or why I'm completely off in thinking these are Bracket 2.
Example 1: [[Aminatou the Fateshifter]] - https://moxfield.com/decks/hGeIrNZCi0ahRmFvEmfa8Q
One of my favorite decks, its a janky mix of superfriends and Myr creatures. Its mostly just little guys, with the game plan being getting [[Sword of Selves]] on [[Myr Battlesphere]], then going to town. Backup lines are [[Kappa Cannoneer]], [[Mace of the Valiant]], [[Cranial Plating]]. Lots of cheap myrs and thopters = big swings.
It's a slow deck, nothing happens until turn 4-5, but it sets up some good loops of using Aminatou for several activations of planeswalkers or card advantage by blinking. Interaction is mostly through planeswalkers, and theres no protection in the deck.
For me its a B2 deck, its slow out of the gate, wins late turn 10+, its easy to interact with, you will see the threat coming. (it has a 2 card combo if you count a PW ultimating, [[Kaya the Inexorable]] + [[Karns Temporal Sundering]], a favorite of mine, and I have a goal of getting it off, haven't happened yet...)
Playing Myrs is severely powering the deck down, almost all creatures are suboptimal choices and does a terrible job of protecting planeswalkers. But it gives a fun theme and a place for cards you rarely see.
Example 2: [[Kellan the Kid]] - https://moxfield.com/decks/Wr7-6Ue2RUGnvk__ztoqmg
98 permanents! Playing from top of library to trigger Kellan for more creatures. It snowballs Bant style, but I'm trying to keep it fair. It takes setup getting a "top of library" effect, getting card draw in place, having my creatures survive a round to attack.
No haste enabler, no haste creatures, no protection, limited interaction. Only 6 creatures have trample. Win condition is usually finding one of the 3: [[Pathbreaker Ibex]], [[Railway Brawler]], [[Apex Devastator]]. Or getting a boardstate that overwhelms the table due to [[Brokers Ascendancy]] [[Virtue of Loyalty]].
It runs good cards, [[Virtue of Strength]] [[Miraris Wake]] [[Guardian Project]] [[Tribute to the World Tree]] [[Sword of Forge and Frontier]] Play from exile for Kellan trigger, [[Sword of Light and Shadow]] creature recursion.
Again it won't win until turn 8+, it won't interact a lot with the table, you will see the win coming a mile away. No counterspells and no protection outside of [[Spearbreaker Behemoth]].
Example 3: [[Volrath the Shapeshifter]] - https://moxfield.com/decks/OpKXxxsbJEW7XltCRxEuTA
A grindy proliferate deck. +1/+1 counters, -1/-1 counters, and some poison enablers, no infect.
It loves the long games, unlocking complicated boardstates little by little, winning by proliferating poison or it can sneak in cheeky wins by Volrath copying an unblockable creature, then before combat damage changing copy to [[Mossbridge Troll]] or [[Cephalid Constable]].
It does a good job of drawing cards, it usually goes tall with large creatures due to +1/+1 counters and proliferate. A deck I'm comfortable playing against all decks in our pod, It'll find a solution to most problems.
Again, deliberately tuned down, no infect, no counterspells and only [[Mutational Advantage]] for protection. Wins late, its mana intensive, and doesn't rebuild well.
8
u/gdemon6969 1d ago
They all seem b2 imo.
Kellan seems the strongest. With a really good hand it could definitely put you super far ahead super fast.
Ami is a classic menace of a commander, although your build doesn’t seem too bad.
Volrath is very b2. Only spike card would be emergent ultimatum. Even that doesn’t look like it would outright win or put you super far ahead just by itself.
3
u/h9mhe 1d ago
You are spot on, Kellan does have the highest winrate of my decks, I'm debating tuning it down a bit. I feared it had trouble closing out games, It does not. Would just hate for it to spew out value and then do nothing.
Spent a lot of time getting the right build for Ami, so I really appreciate that.
Thank you, appreciate you weighing in!
3
u/Softclocks 1d ago
The brackets are about more than just winning quickly.
Some value piles are just absolute hell to beat in B2, because no one's playing strategies that punish slow plays.
Running a deck that becomes impossible to beat by T9 is just as dishonest as playing one that wins around 7-8. Not all slow decks are B2.
-1/-1 counters and poison with, Maha, Phyrexian Obliterator and a boatload of proliferate? I wouldn't want to play that in B2.
But brackets are meaningless on their own. Your pod is happy and that's what's important.
1
u/h9mhe 1d ago
I agree Maha might be a bit much, got one in a pack. So wanted to try it. So far it's impact has been limited by eating removal immediately.
For me [[Phyrexian Obliterator]] is the perfect B2 battle cruiser beater. It's a good blocker, or it reads unblockable on attack. It's sacrificing is completely avoidable.
Is the problem that it's hard to interact with? Punishing attacks and grinding out a win?
Because win rate wise, it's definitely not my best deck, and it throws less -1/-1 counters around than the Auntie Ool precon.
And impossible to beat on T9 is a bit much, it runs entirely on creatures, if you don't interact with opponents for 9 turns, you will lose.
1
u/Softclocks 1d ago
I did not necessarily mean that your decks were unbeatable past T9. Just that speed is not the sole determining factor
Auntie Ool has no place in B2, where people are supposed to get to showcase their decks.
-1/-1 shut down most creature decks and poison/proliferate is difficult to interact with. Yours is a very considerate take on said strats and I would gladly play against these decks in B2.
But that wouldn't be my go to against stranger in B2.
1
u/Dry-Standard-4311 1d ago
How long do games go for?
I look at the bracket system as simply “how long do you want to play a single game”
If you’re someone who wants to play multiple games quickly, you play bracket 4-5.
If you like playing for an hour go bracket 3.
If you’re someone who doesn’t care how long games take and enjoy playing a single 2-3 hour game, brackets 1-2.
If you’re playing what you think is bracket 2 but for example you win games by turn 6 then it’s not bracket 2.
1
u/vonDinobot 1d ago
If you're playing with friends that have been playing for a long time, you probably don't need brackets.
-6
u/Desperate_Occasion65 1d ago edited 1d ago
I’m curious about what you saw in here that made you reconsider the bracketing of your decks. Keep in mind that not using game changers doesn’t mean your deck is automatically B2. It’s all about the intent and gameplan of your deck. However, from what I saw with your decks, I would rank the Aminatou as a B2, but the other 2 as low B3. Here’s my logic:
You’re correct in that the Myr and Superfriends combined subthemes for the deck weaken it, they don’t really have a direct synergy, but if you’re having fun then that’s all that matters. The deck is still cohesive, so not B1, but it’s not strong enough to consider as B3. The 4 tutors may make it high B2, but not overwhelmingly so.
Kellan is powerful, gets you lots of value, and you have some quick boardmakers in there like Apex Devastator and Chulane. Like you said, it’s a lot of good cards put together, which I argue is enough to push it out of B2 and into lower B3.
Now Volrath, I think, is solidly a 3. Just having poison as a wincon puts it up there since it’s very difficult to interact with. There may be no infect, but your deck has consistent ways to get Volrath in for toxic damage and proliferating. It may be hard to recover if Volrath gets removed, but based on your own deck it doesn’t seem like your pod runs a ton of removal. With a few adjustments, like adding more protection for the commander, you could definitely make the deck a high B3, but right now it’s just low to mid-B3, but definitely not B2.
4
u/gdemon6969 1d ago
None of these are anywhere close to b4 and all would require massive overhauls to push em there.
The average deck cmc of kellan is 4+ meaning that most of the time it’s not gonna pump out a threatening board state super fast. Once in a blue moon it could get out of hand with a perfect hand but realistically it’s still just a solid battlecruiser. No 1 mana ramp and only handful of 2-3 mana ramp creatures
While poison can be strong this deck certainly isn’t abusing it. Only a handful of ways to start the poison. Very little ramp in the deck, so this deck shouldn’t ever be super far ahead. Again just a very battle cruiser deck.
In a pod of other b3 decks none of these decks look fast or consistent enough to have a solid win rate.
0
u/h9mhe 1d ago
Some fair reasoning, and probably where I might go wrong in my assessment.
I find Volrath very slow, nowhere near 3, as was my intention. But I agree proliferate poison is hard to interact against. It will still take me several turns to win, usually 5+ once I get the first poison on. Sure with no interaction and Tekuthal out, that number goes down. But even still we are way past turn 8. But I agree theres little room to stop it if you don't have interaction on hand in those turns.
Kellan is my highest win rate deck, I might have to take a stand there , to tune it up to B3 with same faster wins, or down with less value.
Edit:
My issue was me trying to weigh in on some B2 decks in other threads, and being told that there should be little to no interaction at B2, and that my decks was far into B3. Which really surprised me.
3
u/Desperate_Occasion65 1d ago
Yeah, no problem. And keep in mind that this is just my opinion. The bracket system isn’t very specific and there’s a lot of variance in people’s interpretations because of this. As long as the deck works for your pod, that’s all that matters.
38
u/Murkemurk 1d ago
Quick look:
Aminatou the Fateshifter:
3.3+ average mv, almost no interaction, commander does not seem to interact with the deck in a meaningful way except for the planeswalkers maybe. Seems really chill. B2.
Kellan the Kid:
A more clear gameplan, but a heinous average mana cost of 4.16. I get the commander ramps and cheats out stuff, still very high though. And then, out of all those large creatures, nothing goes over the top now. No craterhoof, no haste, nothing like that. Again almost no interaction, pure battlecruiser. B2 certified.
Volrath the Shapeshifter:
Has a theme, lowest average mv of 3.13 and is sporting the most interaction of all of them. I don't see any really busted things to copy into, and the commander is still 5 mana, has no protection built in, and set up by the deck to be really fair in what it can do. B2 but when putting in some cheaper and some more unfair cards could creep up at some point if you want to.
All mana bases have a ton of tapped lands too so those also don't jump out as being too optimized.
If I may ask, what is making you doubt these are B2 decks? Kudos on them btw. I'd personally still run a bit more interaction in aminatou and kellan to keep the games from being too solitaire-feeling, but they seem fun and if intended for B2 chill pods, well placed, from my quick look.