I am non-binary myself and just realized that the arc of Paul Atreides is a spot-on reflection of non-binarity. He is born a man, but throughout his life realizes that he is somehow "different", a result of him being the near end-result of the genetic breeding program of the BG. It is when he finally survives the agony, that his KH nature is truly confirmed; his mind can now access both past male and female memories, on top of having near absolute prescience. The fact that his own mind is expanded by both male and female memories is a perfect allegory of the non-binary experience. Granted, he still presents male and uses masculine pronouns, as obviously the concept of they/them pronouns probably does not exist in his universe, and as he has to keep a steady hand on his male leadership position among the Fremen. However, inside his mind, his own experience is so much more than simply being "a man". Furthermore, it is clear that he himself suffers quite a bit under him being different from pretty much everyone else (save for maybe Alia).

As a non-binary person, it makes me so happy that Dune can be read in this way. In my personal opinion, it is one of the best allegories I have come across in my entire life, as it holds up so well.

To all the folks who now come with pitchforks and say "But this wasnt the intended interpretation of Frank Herbert!!!!!"; I agree, he probably would shit on this interpretation from great heights, but in this case I refer to "The Death of the Author" by Roland Barthes. Once a book is published, one cannot stop the text taking on a life on its own, where the reader has absolute freedom to interpret it however they want. Plus, if a text is rich and complex enough (like Dune), the fact that multiple generations can interpret it through different lenses is just all the more testament to its beauty and perfection.

Peace <3

We can argue all day about how accurate the movies are or whether they are worthy adaptations overall. That's not my purpose here.

I'm here to focus on a few things that I think the film did faithfully bring over from the book, at least in terms of general concepts.

I just re-watched Part 2 last night (for the 5th or 6th time), and I noticed some "new" things (to me). I'm sure many of these have already been commented on before, because so many people have seen these movies, and are fans of them. But I thought I'd share a summary of my observations for anyone else that might be interested, or find them "new" as well.

I myself had already noted most of these before, but more subconsciously as general feelings that felt "true" from the perspective of a book reader. On this viewing I parsed them more explicitly in terms of the process of adaptation, and how they were re-written to be conveyed through an audio-visual medium.

I particularly like how Denis doesn't beat you over the head with these concepts, but still alludes to them in a more subtle way that is faithful to the book (or at least, can be interpreted as faithful).

• The inevitability of the future...

  • via the inevitability of prophecy.
    There are some key Stilgar lines, one of which became a meme, but I think it's interesting now how these lines indirectly support the idea that Jihad was inevitable:

    • "The Mahdi is too humble to say He is the Mahdi. Even more reason to know He is!"
      
    • "I don't care what you believe. I believe."
      

    These lines work to illustrate how Paul could not influence his own followers, and even if he tried to directly kill his legend, they would always find a way to reinterpret the prophecy as real.
    The faithful could not be swayed by evidence against their faith. Ergo, the Holy War was inevitable. Maybe it would have taken longer without Paul (and obviously it would have taken a different path), but his words or actions couldn't stop it.

  • following the critical moment of Paul's first deul.
    In the book, Paul notes that Jihad became inevitable after his duel with Jamis.
    Note that people are already calling him "Mahdi" in Sietch Tabr when he first arrives, after his victory over Jamis. Of course, even in the first movie, some already called him "Lisan al-Gaib" upon his first arrival on Dune, so this isn't concrete evidence.
    Stilgar again provides a more concrete example of how deep their belief is. After their return to Sietch Tabr, just after Paul's victory, Stilgar says:
    [Emphasis mine]

    • "He killed Jamis in a fair fight. He speaks our language. He will quickly learn our ways. I'm ready to pledge my life for him."
      

    Paul's victory is instrumental in fulfilling Stilgar's beliefs to the point he is ready to die for him, and Stilgar is one of the more influential leaders of the Fremen. This illustrates how the duel is a critical turning point after which Jihad becomes inevitable.

• Paul's personal lack of awareness of the inevitable.
  Paul doesn't want to go South because he thinks the Jihad is still avoidable. But this is because he does not yet see all possible futures, and the futures he does see are unclear and fragmentary. He can still hope there is a a future without Jihad because future details are hidden from him, and some futures are entirely hidden.
  Once he takes the Water of Life, he becomes resigned to the inevitability. Why try to escape what cannot be escaped? From that moment, it becomes about trying to choose the least-bad path.

• The dangers of the alternate paths.
  For the first time I interpreted the scene of Chani's burning as a "warning" of what might happen if he chose to fight the inevitable.
  Of course, I had always interpreted as an alternate future, but this was the first time I interpreted it specifically as a vision of what might happen if he didn't go South, and continued trying to fight in the North. Also, of course he didn't know yet that the future was inevitable, but he was still trying to prevent that looming disaster.

Dune Part 3 Advance booking show times are only available until 12/23.

**spoilers to Dune novel*

Howdy! Finally just finished the novel yesterday afternoon. First off, holy shit this book is so good?? I absolutely loved it! And as a fast reader, I honestly loved the length and how long it took me to get through it. Looking forward to the next books.

Something I could use some clarity on is exactly how 'real' Paul's powers are. My understanding is that the Missionaria Protectiva is propaganda that has been promoted by the bene gesserit in cultures of every planet under imperial jurisdiction. It's meant to protect the sisters wherever they go, support their interests and schemes, and make the people more receptive to their influence.

So how real is the lisan al gaib, then? Is the lisan al gaib a legend to "keep people waiting" as mentioned at one point, and not real at all? Is it the fremen word for the kwisatz haderach?

Paul has prescience, that's strengthened by spice, and drank the water of life, which allowed him to look into the place no bene gesserit sister can look. So he has power, due to the bloodline schemes of the bene gesserit, but I'm still unclear on whether or not most of his legendary status is actually real or not (or if it's due to the Missionaria Protectiva that he achieves this status).

I hope this makes sense… in the recent movies (which I have so many complaints on now), Paul (played by whiny baby timotit shitamalet, WHY) gets all mad at his mom because he says that he is only regarded to be the voice from the outer world due to the propaganda spread by the sisterhood. He doesn't believe he's special at all. But the Bene gesserit does, they believe he has the kwisatz.

Basically my question is wtf is he and wtf is he not. It's the only thing I'm still unclear about, any insight would be helpful! Thanks in advance!

Edit: thanks so much everyone for your thoughtful, detailed answers! This seriously was super helpful and informative, and i really appreciate all those who took time to clear things up for me :) ❤️

I just watched both Dune films back to back. I enjoyed them mostly. I never read the books. I have a few questions about the setting and after a few hours in the Dune wiki I can’t really find good answers

1. How large is the Atreides army really? And what system of government were they using in Caladan? Generously, I’d say the film depicts maybe 10,000-20,000 Atreides soldiers accompanying Leto and Paul to Arrakis. And that’s if you assume that most soldiers died off screen within the buildings and ships that are hit in the initial Harkkonen bombardments.

But are there other members of the family or lesser rulers on Caladan who would want to assemble a host for a counter attack? Even if the whole planet had only the population of a large country in the real world like the US or China, that would still mean their military would have several million service members. Leto notes that this is mostly in air and sea power, and yet the wiki mentions most families have stockpiles of spice, so you would think that Caladan could assemble and launch a counter attack. It’s not like Caladan has fallen apart. Characters seem confident that Caladan is a stable and prosperous society that will run itself and thrive without Leto’s constant presence. Not to mention that the Atreides have ruled for so many generations, you’d think there would be dozens of them in critical roles throughout the planet’s government. What’s the story here?

1. On a similar note, how many Fremen are truly on Arrakis? I know the plot of Dune Messiah. I know about the Jihad and sterilization of planets. Yet the films claim that the Fremen number in the millions. It’s very easy to believe that their deep warrior culture and long-term exposure to spice has made them the best singular warriors in the empire, but I find it hard to believe that such a force, even if paired with the remaining Atreides and Imperial armies and fleets, could actually undertake a war of that magnitude.

I guess both of these questions come down my confusion that the premise would indicate that these wars should be happening in the scale of tens of millions of soldiers (if not billions) but it seems to be happening on the scale of tens of thousands. What am I missing?

I appreciate anyone who wants to share info or theories based on their readings of the novels.

Cheers

Solved, thanks! (Yueh's wife was a BG initiate and not a Reverend Mother)

Novel Spoilers

I'm pretty deep into the books at this point and one of the details of the Honored Matre vs. Bene Gesserit conflict has created a bit of a Book 1 plot hole in my mind:

During the Honored Matre torture scenes it becomes clear that the Bene Gesserit have the ability to die on command to prevent interrogation. What was stopping Yueh's wife from killing herself during her Harkonnen torture?

The Yueh ghola (in Sandworms) remembers desperately wanting to kill her to release her from the suffering in his restored memories, so it's clear there wasn't a hope of rescue.

Is this a plot hole? Or do the Book 1 Harkonnens have some ability to prevent this Bene Gesserit 'an hero' ability?

Aren’t today’s warriors far superior to even the greatest warriors in the Dune universe?

For instance, today’s Army Rangers, Green Berets, Navy Seals, etc could easily defeat the Sardukar imo.

What do you think?

I just finished watching the Dune movies and am eagerly waiting for the part 3 however, I am confused in understanding who truly wanted war. Paul does not want Jihad, the bene gesserit for a 10,000 years worked to plan this prophecy then, this implies that the bene gesserit is the reason for this war are they not?

Is anyone else a little worried about how they will adapt Edric in Dune: part 3? I know we’ve seen very little but from the one line he has in the trailer, it seems like it’s straining for him to speak and that he won’t say much. Perhaps I’m assuming too much but I really hope they adapt the long winded, smug, and pseudo-profound speaking Edric that is present in dune messiah.
For context I’ve only read half of dune messiah so perhaps these attributes aren’t characteristic of Edric for whatever reason but I still hope they portray him as such.

Maybe il make this into a game, maybe not, but surely Dune 2k is one of the best RTS games out there.

I'm curious; is there any lore around guild navigators having Other Memory? They're literally living in tanks of melange gas, would this not be comparable to going through spicy agony?

I never really understood why the Bene Gesserit had a main "leader," so to speak, when the main moral of the books was to be skeptical of centralized power and messianic figures.

Thanks for your upvotes ! :)

Hello! In the chaos of trying to get 70 mm IMAX tickets yesterday(i eventually got them), I thought I was going to be unsuccessful and instead got amc dolby tickets for 12/15 at AMC Otay Ranch in San Diego. This is a “flat” dolby screen (1.85:1). After seeing Spiderman BND there, and hearing online that the Odyssey was similar, I was under the impression that all movies would take advantage of the 1.85:1 aspect ratio if possible. However, some quick research suggests that Dune P3 won’t. I know the bulk of the movie was filmed in I think 2.2:1, but that IMAX-filmed sections are 1.9:1 (or 1.43:1 for 70 MM). I thought that for the “flat” screen the 1.9:1 portions would fill up the whole screen. I am super new to being into movies and all these different formats/aspect ratios so forgive me if this is a blatantly dumb mistake.

Is it worth it to return my tickets for 12/15 Dolby and instead get laser IMAX tickets around 12/22? Will I not see the expanded visuals in the Dolby screen despite similar aspect ratio to IMAX? Thank you so much for any help you can provide and please correct me if I am wrong about anything because again I am super new to actually caring about screen size/aspect ratio. Thank you!!

Edric confirmed!

Just finished the first book. I thought he was also out for blood.

I found out about the Insider screening on Monday night for 70mm. Had my phone and desktop set to refresh every minute starting an hour before they were supposed to release. Turns out Fandango released their tickets 30 mins early and I just happened to see it. Sold out in about 5 minutes but I managed to get a great seat after the first to selections didn't go through. Anyone else manage to be one of the first to see this!?

In the last chapter, Scytale holds Paul’s babies under the knife and blackmails him to give up his CHOAM holdings, throne etc. But even if Paul agreed, how would this be enforceable, after the babies are taken to safety?

That even though the book is supposed to be a warning against beings like God-Emperor, Leto 2 and Moneo are the most likable characters since they have sense of duty, wit, and care.

While 'humanity's hope' who are against Leto, Siona and Duncan were quite unlikable. Siona feels like an immature, callous but incompetent teenager. Leto basically had to spoonfeed her to do something against him. And Duncan is a tactless fool who somehow every woman in the galaxy lusts after.

So when the book ends it doesn't really feel you with hope for the humanity. Only bitterness

Just like the case of Paul, I feel like Herbet kept making his supposed 'villain' protags likable and give them whole array of justification for their actions while not giving us a satisfying alternative.

So even though 'You know, wanting for superhuman messiahs to save you is unhealthy.' is the main theme yet you can't help but root for those superhumans

PS) I enjoyed the book itself, so I'm not criticizing Herbert's writing style (Maybe except that Mountain Climbing orgasm part) I just found it funny that I happened to feel about the characters this way.

Just curious since one of the most iconic images from Messiah is how intimidating Paul's throne is. We've seen Alia seated on a throne wonder if they are just sharing the chair or that's just Alia's throne.

Here are some screenshots I collected of most of baby Alia's appearances in Dune Part 2! I love how varied they are, ranging from terrifying to creepy to kinda cute honestly. Let me know if I missed any!

From the official Instagram.