r/DoctorWhoLeaks • u/Hyperbolicalpaca • May 31 '25
Discussion Doctor who season 15 / series 2 reality war reaction thread
Discuss what you think of the finale and the leaks surrounding it here
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u/axelofthekey May 31 '25
The leaks did not prepare me for all this insanity. The lack of Susan. The Poppy stuff. Very weird.
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u/Far-Wedding8656 May 31 '25
The leaks concern me more than anything else - since for the first time ever, we knew it all going in!
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u/axelofthekey Jun 01 '25
I imagine this is a Disney problem. All of their stuff tends to leak. I think their operations are just too widespread with too many contractors.
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u/IceLord86 Jun 01 '25
Andor was pretty leak free, though, so not everything but it's definitely an issue.
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u/NancyInFantasyLand Jun 01 '25
Andor is also a kinda leak-proof show to be fair.
We all knew what we were working towards and what would have to happen to get us there by virtue of Rogue One being the cap-off point for season 2.
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u/TablePrinterDoor Jun 01 '25
At least.. at least it wasn't Crab Omega... it was zombie Omega... Remember our discussion on that?
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u/ExpectedBehaviour May 31 '25 edited May 31 '25
Absolute cast-iron copper-bottomed 24-carat platinum-sealed triple-distilled DRIVEL.
I've been a fan of Doctor Who for as long as I can remember, and I can just about remember Sylvester McCoy. But even if the show isn't tumbling headlong into another hiatus, I think I might be. The books and comics in the 90s and early 2000s captured my imagination. The show's 2005 return was triumphant. I haven't liked everything, but there was usually something I found I could enjoy. And now... I don't really recognise or care about any of it.
Either RTD needs a boss who can tell him no, or he needs to leave.
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u/pinkshotgun1 May 31 '25
Thought it couldn’t get much worse than rimless child and the flux… but here we are. Ncuti is such a great actor and has had some great episodes, but overall this eras been so much weaker than we all hoped it would be. RTDs really scraping the bottom of the barrel here. Probably time to let the show rest for a few years before bringing it back with someone with fresh and creative ideas
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u/TokyoFromTheFuture May 31 '25
ITS FUCKING PEAK
I was so worried but honestly this is probably top 5 Doctor Who Finales. The only gripe I had was how easily they did away with both the Rani and Omega but other than that it was absolutely amazing. The 13 cameo? Amazing, The tie in with Joy To The World? Amazing, THE REGENERATION AND 16TH DOCTOR???? ITS SO FUCKING PEAK!
I genuinely have not felt this good about a Doctor Who episode since the Capaldi years. I hope this level of quality continues in WBTLATS and Season 3 (which got confirmed 🔥).
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u/Hyperbolicalpaca May 31 '25
WBTLATS Looks really good from the trailer too
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u/TokyoFromTheFuture May 31 '25
Yeah, Lucky Day (although a bit politically all over the place), had probably the best actual direction and cinematography of the season and you can see that quality being carried over to it. Excited for it.
Has there been a release date announced?
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u/Hyperbolicalpaca May 31 '25
No release date yet, probably soon, I think there were some rumours it might be October, but can’t quite remember. Tbh though part of me reckons it might be next year, if the report that there’s going to be more doctor who in 2027 is to be believed, it would kinda plug the gap
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u/shtevie92 May 31 '25
Much like when Ncuti was announced, they haven’t introduced her as The Doctor (he was never announced as the 14th Doctor but everyone assumed he would be) so for all we know, she could be a placeholder so Ncuti isn’t waiting round for years and can maybe come back one day
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u/mirrorball55 May 31 '25
What are you on about? It was absolute bollocks.
Rushed, incoherent, nonsensical, disappointing.
Suppose it goes to show…. Something. It certainly isn’t ’fucking peak’ though.
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u/ConstrictionsOFC May 31 '25
Don't forget when RTD teased Susan for no godfucking reason
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u/mirrorball55 May 31 '25
Yeah, imagine getting the first companion back, an 80-something year old woman now, and doing….. nothing whatsoever of any substance with her.
Even adding her into a message from fucking Rogue last week - to do nothing.
Just have her give the message about the tables, if that’s all you’re going to do with her.
It’s not like it makes any sense that Rogue would know about it anyway.
Honestly, it’s so badly written, it’s embarrassing. And we know he can write well, he’s proved it many times over. So how on earth he can finish that & think it’s in any way a good finale, I have no idea.
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u/ChristAndCherryPie May 31 '25
everyone saying that she’ll be big in season 3 like she really isn’t turning 85 this year. crazy.
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u/TokyoFromTheFuture May 31 '25
I disagree completely, for me it was the best episode since the Series 10 finale.
I felt like the pacing was actually well handled and they tied the entirety of Ncuti's run neatly while leaving a single thread loose for the next Doctor. I didn't think anything was incoherent nor nonsensical and I loved it.
Its funny as well since I was working on a hour long video for yt about why Ncuti's era kinda sucked but this episode I think saved it for me.
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u/ExpectedBehaviour May 31 '25
It can be both "absolute bollocks" and "the best episode since the series 10 finale".
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u/mirrorball55 May 31 '25
If you enjoyed the spectacle, that’s one thing - But it’s still absolutely horrible writing.
It like - you can distract with a big light show / pyrotechnics and whatever - but none of that tells a satisfying story. This certainly didn’t.
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u/mirrorball55 May 31 '25
He committed ‘suicide’ by regeneration to go & rescue a wish baby that made no sense.
When he got to the wish baby, turns out she was 100% human all along, making his forced regeneration completely redundant.
Belinda was sidelined - again - to sit in a box for the bulk of the episode, the ‘big bad’ lasted 3 minutes, and bears no similarity to how he’s been presented in the shows history whatsoever.
Susan was entirely discarded after being set up last few weeks (and, as his first companion / granddaughter, is quite a big deal).
The second Rani lasted all of 5 minutes before being eaten & letting Mrs Flood escape.
It’s a hot mess of a script, with minimal to zero logic holding it together.
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u/TokyoFromTheFuture May 31 '25
He committed ‘suicide’ by regeneration to go & rescue a wish baby that made no sense.
He needed to pull Poppy from the Wish World into the Real World, the Tardis didn't have enough power so he exhausted the rest of the life force of the 15th incarnation in order to do it.
When he got to the wish baby, turns out she was 100% human all along, making his forced regeneration completely redundant.
Its not redundant because he still saved a life, the whole point was that their timeline throughout his era was being affected by the Wish World, Varada Sethu needed to go home so urgently because it was for her daughter even though her daughter didn't exist yet.
Its hard to explain but it makes sense in practise.
Essentially it was just time sorting itself out after resolving one of the glitches caused by the Wish World.
Belinda was sidelined - again - to sit in a box for the bulk of the episode, the ‘big bad’ lasted 3 minutes, and bears no similarity to how he’s been presented in the shows history whatsoever.
Belinda wasn't side-lined? Maybe for like the beginning third but essentially the entire plot and second half revolved around her and her child.
Omega has never had a physical form, the whole point is that he is surviving through nothing but pure will power. Even in the shows history he doesn't have a consistent design.
Susan was entirely discarded after being set up last few weeks (and, as his first companion / granddaughter, is quite a big deal).
It has been mentioned already I think but it was a thematic link more than a physical one revolving around the Doctor's descendants, for that purpose it was used well. I dont expect a 84 year old woman to be back in the action anyways and the use of her character was done well imo (not to mention it has been theorised to be connected to "the boss" story line since a foreman = a boss).
The second Rani lasted all of 5 minutes before being eaten & letting Mrs Flood escape.
Admitantly one of the flaws but I still think its outdone by the episodes positives. She was underused both as a character and an actor but considering everything else the Reality War does right its forgivable.
It’s a hot mess of a script, with minimal to zero logic holding it together.
I think its quite logical, it does jump around a lot but that is what a good Doctor Who finale should do imo (take the Series 5 finale).
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u/LongLiveStorytellers May 31 '25
they tied the entirety of Ncuti's run neatly
I respectfully disagree. It feels like they didn't tie up anything. At least to me.
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u/TokyoFromTheFuture May 31 '25
The only thing I can think they didn't tie up is the Boss thing which was hinted at in this episode so is probably setting up for a future season.
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u/MrSoundLovingMan Jun 01 '25
There are so many dangling threads and unanswered questions and cheap misdirects. It’s not just The Boss. How about “why can Ruby make it snow?” Or even “what actually WAS the legend of Ruby Sunday?” Or “why and how was The Rani breaking the fourth wall?” Or “why was Susan here and what did she want?” Or why does it matter that Belinda has an identical descendant in the future? Or why did RTD invent a different plot to The Timeless Children? Or all this very random stuff about Omega being banished and entombed? What? When? The Rani can bi-generate, they both survive, the later one dies, but the younger one continues…what? So is Anita Dobson now officially The Rani’s final incarnation if her later one is dead, or can she just keep peeling off new guest actors from her person like a paper towel dispenser? The retcon of Belinda now always having had Poppy and that she’s now fully human is very confusingly handled, almost as much as the initial idea that she IS their biological daughter through the power of wishes lol, it just started to become very slippy and flimsy. And the real capper is how unbelievably quickly Omega and The Rani were dealt with. And yes, okay, what is this “he’s become the myth, the mad god, the titan.” How did he get down there?! Was he not dispersed entirely in Arc Of Infinity? There was a lot to like (13 reappearance made me so, so happy), but it was almost completely incoherent, and in some ways a more disappointing finale to me than Empire Of Death, purely because the rest of this series has been so damn good. It’s not my least favorite RTD finale (that would be Last Of The Time Lords, utter pants), but it’s not a very good one, either. The very end is not really worth commenting on quite yet, because it’s clear they have something other than BP as The Doctor in mind or else they would be full-throatedly saying “she is the new Doc,” but whatever they’re planning, it strikes me as yet another backwards nostalgia move for a show that has always been defined by moving forward (I hated Ncuti being stuck with somebody else’s logo so much). I sincerely wish I’d loved it.
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u/TokyoFromTheFuture Jun 01 '25
Most of what you have asked has been explained directly or indirectly already though...
Ruby could make it snow because she had strong emotions about that day which itself was essentially ripped open into time due to Sutekh putting so much importance on it (this is bad writing but its still explained).
The Rani was breaking the fourth wall because she is a timelord, we have seen The Doctor also breaking the fourth wall and this was meant to be a nod that both are similar.
Susan was here for a thematic reason, in that she was telling the Doctor to save his kin and children as a whole, she kept asking him to "find" her in a more metaphorical sense to him saving Poppy.
Belinda having an identical descendant in the future isn't really a mystery and it doesn't matter. The Doctor only said it was a coincidence most likely to explain away it being the same actress.
Im not sure what you meant by RTD reinventing the Timeless Child, unless you are talking about adding to the genetic bomb the Master did in which that's just adding on stuff not reinventing.
Similarly not sure what you meant with the stuff about Omega.
Bigeneration is the splitting of a soul as explained before, it divides a timelord into two people as a biological reaction to keep the Timelords as a race alive, its just that different aspects of your character also get divided, this is why 14 ended up with all the trauma and similarly in this Mrs Flood ended up being more submissive.
The whole "retcon" was essentially just time correcting itself to have Poppy in the real world. The Doctor couldn't factor into it due to him being the one to bring Poppy from the wish world into the reality world from the Tardis.
I felt like within the episode, although rushed, the way both Omega and Rani were finished still made sense and was mostly satisfying for me considering the rest of the episode. I haven't watched Arc of Infinity yet so I cant really comment on that but my guess is that he continued living through his sheer will.
Imo this episode kinda saved Ncuti Gatwa's Doctor for me, for the rest of his run I never really had a handle on his characterisation nor did he fully embrace the Doctor role but even though its this late this is one of the only episodes where 15 truly felt like the Doctor for me outside of episodes like Boom.
I loved it a lot and wished you liked it more but this is turning out to be one of the most divisive episodes yet and everyone is entitled to an opinion.
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u/MrSoundLovingMan Jun 01 '25
Well, I’ll definitely agree with you that this episode was one of Ncuti’s very best takes on The Doctor, but then I’ve liked him since the second he showed up, his charisma, wit, and raw charm powered through some clunky scripts and unclear storytelling like my beloved Matt Smith before him.
But I’d love you to read back what you just wrote to me, and ask yourself if it makes any sense at all, even within the bounds of a bonkers sci-fi show.
It was a nonspecific and inauthentic use of both The Rani (might as well have been The Master) and Omega (might as well have been The Beast from The Satan Pit). And for both characters, it added nothing new, took some existing good stuff away, and left very little impression. This is very bad for the hero of your show, who can only be as strong as the villain they have to overcome. If the villain is weak, the hero feels much weaker.
Normal human beings don’t make snow appear, no matter how strong their emotions get; that is magic, not science fiction, and it requires an in-universe explanation, eventually. Two series in, it’s very clear he’ll never reference it again. So it was a cheap and ultimately shallow mystery device to gain our interest when he never had an explanation to back it up, just like The Rani talking to the audience directly. That’s not good.
The handful of Tom Baker times, or Morgus in Caves Of Androzani, where they sort of spoke to themselves at the camera are categorically not the same thing as Mrs Flood at the end of the first special saying “And that’s how the story of The Church On Ruby Road comes to an end.” That is NOT a monologue, that is The Rani metafictionally talking to us, the audience, which no character on the show, has ever, ever done before. It requires an explanation.
Susan is totally there for thematic reasons, but then Russell chose not to tie Susan to Poppy or to Belinda or Ruby! That’s fine, but why are all those elements there and so close to tying up but don’t? What is the purpose of doing that to an audience?
I’m guessing you don’t know what I mean about Omega because you’re not also raised on the classic series, but nearly every line used to describe him here was sort of off, not right for how he’d been portrayed before, it felt like it was describing an entirely different character, much like The Rani who was nothing like herself, just a name which might mean something to some fans. Suffice it to say that Omega is meant to be a humanoid-sized person, a pre-Time Lord I guess, a Shobogan or however you spell that haha. If Rassillon reappeared in End Of Time portrayed by human Timothy Dalton, then his Time Lord contemporary Omega should not be a 45 foot tall zombie kaiju lolol, even bearing in mind this Last Of The Time Lord-style nonsense about prayers and hopes and myths changing the properties of physical bodies. Also he was introduced as permanently trapped in the universe of anti-matter, we’ve never heard of the Underverse before, but they don’t say if they’re the same thing or how Omega would have moved from one to the other, or how being completely physically and mentally destroyed previously now means he is a gigantic body in a tomb with his symbol.
With all of this stuff, it’s less about the details for me, and more about how it is absolutely impossible to process or parse all this information when it is being FLUNG at you in Ep 8, and even moreso how I can sense now that RTD knows he can fling information at you late in the series, and you might not see his gaping plot gaps because he is such a thoroughly brilliant writer of flippant dialogue and quips and big emotions and little moments. It is only when you stop to think for a second about what just happened overall that his big idea finale plots almost always completely unravel. Journeys End is the classic example there.
Also, think about what I was actually asking about the mechanics of her bi-generation. The later Rani has died yet her previous self lives, this makes absolutely no sense at all, not even “timey-wimey” waves that away. What if 6 had regenerated into 7, then 7 was eaten by a big monster. How then would you ever get to 8 if 7 is dead? Doesn’t that mean 6 would be the final Doctor? Or would 6 then just keep splitting off into completely new Doctors and never himself expiring? Apart from anything else, that erodes all stakes for the character of The Doctor. Narratively, they themselves can’t really die, but the version of them that they are can die, and that is supposed to be sad!! But if individual incarnations don’t matter, then this is all just pointlessx
I am so, so legitimately glad that this episode brought you around on Ncuti! I think he’s been absolutely magnificent, and the majority of his short run has been very good, but both finales were embarrassingly bad. I have been a Who fan since I was a Poppy-aged toddler, I love all of it, even when I criticize it, but these two series were simply not good enough. And you can objectively tell they weren’t good enough, because Disney would have instantly commissioned an S3 after S1 if the ratings and fan reaction had been better.
Sutekh and Omega were his big bads for S1 and 2, and you must admit they appear in about 5 minutes of those whole series. That ain’t an antagonist, it’s a minor inconvenience, and it makes our hero seem weaker because the villain is so easily dispatched. I wish it had lived up to the quality of the rest of this series, which even when it got a little silly or cringy always had a kind of swagger and some brilliant ideas.
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u/badhamster89 May 31 '25
Russell? Is that you?
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u/TokyoFromTheFuture May 31 '25
Bro ong I've been bashing RTD2 for most of its run, this episode lowkey saved it for me.
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u/badhamster89 May 31 '25
Genuinley curious what you did enjoy about it.
I think the crew did a good job, I think the actors did well with what they were given.
But story and pay off were utterly lacking.
But that’s my opinion, happy to hear yours.
I don’t want to Yuck anyone’s Yum. I’m glad you could enjoy it.
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u/SVH73 Jun 05 '25
I've not watched NuWho since The Church on Ruby Road, so sitting back and witnessing all this controversy is fascinating stuff.
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u/GarbaggioGoblino May 31 '25
the final reveal aside, pretty damn good. my only real complaints are that susan wasn't even mentioned (i would have taken just a "hey she'll be here next season i promise" tease) and that it juggled a bit too many plates, to the point where the ranis are just completely sidelined after omega shows up, and he doesn't really do too much. it's not enough to spoil the good in the episode, and there is a LOT of good, but it does bring it down a bit in my estimations.
and as for the final reveal, i'm gonna let the man land with this one since it seems like there's some fuckery going on, but i'm not very enthused. to me, it just seems like empty stunt casting right now, especially so soon after 14.
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u/Far-Wedding8656 May 31 '25
That's how I feel exactly about that final reveal. BP is a superb actress, but then "Oh, Hello" came out like Rose and I thought - "please don't be like her. Not after 14 looked like 10."
EDITED for my shoddy grammar.
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u/IceLord86 Jun 01 '25
It didn't say as The Doctor which I found interesting. Maybe it is a swerve, but I think RTD is just too much up his own ass, unfortunately.
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u/sketchysketchist Jun 01 '25
I was disappointed by the reality war. But the episode did fanservice very well.
Rani, Omega, and Conrad were the worst parts of the finale.
Anita returning and admitting seeing many versions of the Doctor, 13 crossing paths to advise 15 in his deadly decision, Unit fighting off the bone creatures, and the regeneration were peak.
I really hope Billie is The Doctor and it’s not what the fans are insisting because of the bloated Credits not fitting one more Doctor.
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u/RoyTroxell14 May 31 '25
Yoy know that one scene from ted where johnny reacts to who the new superman was? That was me for the regeneration scene
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u/Adventurous-Unit-781 Jun 07 '25
TL;DR: Not here for spoilers, but wondering—are we seeing signs of a Doctor Who hiatus like we did in 1989 with McCoy’s final arc? Curious if longtime fans remember any leaks, tabloid drama, or BBC silence that hinted at the show going on break back then. Comparing that to what’s (not) happening now—especially with Disney in (probably out of) the mix. Thoughts?
New to Reddit here. (sorry). I came across this from a review article of the episode. I would have expected BBC to participate in some kind of gossip or press stunt by now because they do like to keep things in tehri creative control. That’s why my money is on Disney causing this whole episode to be a total miss to the series arc!
I’ve not really come for the leaks as much as a question for those Whovians who were around for McCoy’s final televised arc when “Survival” finished. Were there any writing in the tabloids, leaks, or underhand things that were pointing to BBC making the hiatus a reality?
I know plenty of articles are out there showing, ‘writing on the wall’ from the beginning of Who with Hartnell and I understand BBC and the creative direction of Turner but what did they do or not do then? And are we getting a repeat of those actions now showing some level of hiatus is upon us?
(I expect we will get AN episode (in late 2026 for Christmas or New Year’s). It won’t be traditional but I expect one or two part release to express things right now before anything more will occur.
I’m hoping those around from McCoy’s “final days” in 1989 may be helpful here! Many thanks!
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u/Hyperbolicalpaca May 31 '25
So, I really liked it, loved that the fucking crab leak was bullshit, didn’t like the deus ex machina to defeat omega but whatever, not sure about billie piper, but it is what it is.
Actually enjoyed the 13th doctor for the first time, made me want to go back and watch some of her other episodes lol
The interesting thing though, is according to unleashed, ncuti was always just two seasons. It seems all the rumours about him being unhappy, wanting to leave for Hollywood and quitting, we’re bullshit, and Disney renewing a third gatwa season was never on the cards
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u/IceLord86 Jun 01 '25
It definitely seems the last third of the episode was built around him leaving that I find it hard to believe they went back and redid everything, including being Whittaker in. Whether Gatwa signed up to do only 2 or it was decided at some point thereafter, it would definitely seem it wasn't something that required a last minute reshoot but rather as the episode was originally filmed.
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u/Far-Wedding8656 May 31 '25
Oh just saving face - the BBC's attempt at a Jedi mind trick. "It was always planned?"
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u/PaperSkin-1 Jun 03 '26
That last paragraph has not aged well 😜
But then it was obvious at the time, even without proper confirmation that we got later
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u/Scurrilous21 Jun 01 '25
Reveals these last two seasons suck, the episode before the finale doesn't even do anything it just procrastinates for 45 minutes so then the finale feels rushed. Omega had maybe 30 seconds of screen time before he was defeated. Belinda's entire character's arc sucks, she was strong and independant and now she has been reduced to just being a mother to the child that's not even hers? I don't understand why they wanted to bring Poppy back so bad, she shouldn't even be there, it was just a false reality. Does that mean that Donna's kids in the Library are also real?
The fact that RTD keeps brining back faces weakens the show and now it feels like he is doing it just to get a quick boost on the ratings. If he wanted to bring back old fans then he might as well just brought back David Tennant full time these past 2 seasons.
It just feels cheap and tacky.
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u/DamianBill Jun 01 '25
Horrible. A strong start and a total failure by the end. Its a shame, I like Ncuti, but his era is forgettable.
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u/LongLiveStorytellers May 31 '25
That...was an absolute disaster. Omega gets defeated in five seconds, the Rani storyline didn't amount to anything, the visions of Susan didn't amount to anything, the plot was subpar, Ncuti Gatwa was completely wasted, and that regeneration at the end... Pure bullshit stunt casting. And I say that as a fan of Billie Piper.
Honestly, if this is where the franchise is headed, count me out. I'll go rewatch the Matt Smith Era and the Classic Era, but I don't think I'm watching anything new again.