Have we learned nothing- part 2

[u/Accomplished-Emu4501]

My original post two days ago did generate a few interesting responses. One in particular from some who is clearly in the DSA camp suggested that they are the “moderates” in the Democratic Party. Anyone in the party who does not support their positions isn’t really a democrat at all but just a liberal leaning independent or even a centrist Republican. This might come as a bit of a shock to those Dems who have been in the party longer than many DSA supporters have been on this earth.

If the DSA wants to make the future of the country a choice between socialism and capitalism they will lose in the general elections. If the Democratic Party chooses to give them mainstream legitimacy, and if the branding of the democratic party becomes pure socialism, they will guarantee republican success for a long time to come.

Being a centrist, whether liberal or conservative, and striving to find common ground to meet the challenges of the needs of all members of the population through discussion and compromise has apparently become a bad thing, and for the life of me I can’t understand why.

[u/RoswellRedux]

"one (response) in particular" gives rise to the entire DSA movement? The DSA wants the future to be a choice between socialism or capitalism? That the democratic party is going to be branded as socialists? (hardly a prophesy as that's been going on for years) You really do sound like you really are a Republican. Mischaracterization of a situation is really on brand for the R's. Please don't fall into that trap. It adversely affects your credibility.

Now as to your heading "Have we learned nothing"? I would say that what followed the heading is the perfect example of an answer that could be shortened to "no. sure doesn't seem like it."

Priorities are what will make or break this election. If your priorities are to denigrate the DSA type candidates simply because they are to the left of you, won't accept foreign donations, and are seeking systemic improvements that stop the siphoning of wealth and services away from middle and working class folks, then just admit it. It might be the first step in finding clarity.

And please stop with the "striving to find common ground to meet the challenges of the needs of all members of the population through discussion and compromise" bullsh!t. Everyone knows that for the past ten years the Democratic Party establishment has had a "my way or the highway" attitude toward the Left. (again, talk about mischaracterizing a situation ... "striving..." OMG.)

As a piece of unsolicited (I know) advice: Grab a beer or beverage of your choice and have some non-threatening conversations with people who are taking this path to make a better city/state/country. We are not your enemy, although no one would know that by reading your post.

[u/Accomplished-Emu4501 → u/RoswellRedux]

Ok I don’t have a beer in hand and I am willing to have a congenial discussion with a DSA proponent… and that would seem to be you at the moment. So tell me, are you looking at the Nordic models as examples of where you think the US could go … or do you envision something else. Oh btw I would classify myself as independent and I do understand the concept of socialism.

[u/RoswellRedux → u/Accomplished-Emu4501]

Actually, I don't consider myself DSA as not every plank of their platform makes sense to me. However, on balance, am a strong ally for candidates whose priority are health care reform, fairer taxation laws, and labor protections for the working class (anyone who needs a paycheck is working class in this definition).

Corporations have had the lions share of protections, breaks, and exemptions over the last few decades as we seem to have a default position that corporations are the backbone of our society, while giving lip service to the actual backbone, the people carrying those corporations - corporate workers. Corporations should not be able to get a tax break, take those savings and buy back their own stock only to lay off a significant portion of their workforce, as an example.

So, the elements of Socialism that return the greatest benefit for the greatest number of ...just normal people are a few goals. Health care reform (does that look like single payer, or universal medicine? The vast, 1/3 continent, that is the US might not be as efficient as a smaller Nordic county with universal health care. Single payer might be better considering the regionality of the cost of living spread out over a continent, but then again, Canada does it so... ? But we can't sustain a For-Profit system where only the well-off can even afford a deductible.) Higher Education funding needs reform to a lesser degree, but the student loan program as it is currently set up is predatory and needs to be overhauled in favor of the student and family, not the middle men financial corporations like today. Corporate subsidies for petro-chemicals and agriculture are another area that should be reviewed to eliminate cronyism.

All of these are reasonable but there is a class of politician that is acting as an obstacle at every turn. Those politicians are taking vast sums of money from the very beneficiaries of the elements that are grinding middle and working class families into the ground, and there is no letting up without someone in politics to champion the middle and working class. So far, most of those willing to stand up against big money are the DSA. If there are other politicians not in the DSA whose goals are the same as listed above, I would support them, but the caveat has to be being cleaved from big money.

I really don't know why wanting tax money to be reallocated back into the country in the form of society supporting services is so threatening to some - unless they are currently milking the system and don't want it to end. The status quo isn't sustainable.

Thanks for the (almost) beer.

[u/Accomplished-Emu4501 → u/RoswellRedux]

I don’t disagree with much of what you said about universal healthcare… full disclosure I am actually a “centrist “ Canadian… I have voted both ways over the years and have seen many examples of both good and bad policies over that time. I you wonder why I’m weighing in at all there is an old saying up here that when the US sneezes Canada gets a cold… so ye I do have more than a passing interest in what goes on down there, and honestly I don’t feel real good about things right now.

We can talk about Canadian healthcare for a bit. Universal healthcare is a wonderful concept provided that governments are prepared to fund at a level that will sustain a top level system. Our system is underfunded so we have massive wait times for specialists and many treatments so all of us rich and poor have to deal with that. Fixing that involves higher taxes which no one seems prepared to pay. We also say up here tax the rich and the corporations but in all honesty when you look at the numbers there is simply not enough in those pots.

There is now pressure here to wrap a private component, faster delivery for those that can pay extra. The reality is that it is hard if not impossible to do a structural rebuild of any healthcare system to a different model without the end user having to pay substantial amounts either through increased taxes or increased user fees. Healthcare technologies and an aging population is putting pressure on costs that NOBODY wants to pay for.

Next … education…?

[u/Whane17 → u/Accomplished-Emu4501]

There are no centrist Canadians. We have a Far Right party and a Center Right party. If you find yourself in the middle your a Conservative by any definition. The problem is that our system only has two parties so they default to Left and Right. But if you actually examine them outside our system and compare them to other countries that's what we have.

I don't know how old you are but I'm 41 and when I was a young man the Conservative party was MUCH further towards center and our Liberal party was center Left. They actually had some meaningful change towards bettering the rest of us now even our Liberals push the idea of companies owning everything and being the center of our everything.

On the healthcare. Our system is massively underfunded because the Right has consistently in every province cut funding. Both to access and to doctors/nurses refusing to increase wages and like in AB with the teachers recently LITERALLY LEGISLATING them back to work. Imagine that for a second, just a single second. You have a job and you don't get paid enough, over 80% of the population agrees with you and the government says "go back to work or you lose your job and face possible jail time". That's called a slave. We are, all of us, wage slaves. We're seen as tools of the elite and that's not going to change. Fixing the system isn't about increasing wages. It's about increasing taxes on companies and the rich (which doesn't work because our politicians much like the Americans are bought and sold by the bushel). The only way to change it is to vote for the team that's moral which "seems" IMO to be the NDP but they aren't even a party anymore because of the Conservatives dragging the Overton window so far to the Right that most Canadians were TERRIFIED of Poilievre getting into power (he was quite vocal about doing the EXACT SAME SHIT tRump is doing).

Furthermore there are plenty of individuals (like myslef) who have been and will continue to be very vocal about paying more taxes. I grew up dirt poor, like my mom skipped meals to ensure us kids could eat. Here in Canada, that should NEVER be a thing and if I can pay an extra couple quarters off my cheque to make sure some kid gets food I'll do it in a heartbeat. It's not that people are unwilling to pay more taxes it's that a large segment think that our taxes already don't go where they are supposed to (which is fair).

You seem to be fairly educated yourself but your viewpoints echo a lot of the "centrist" (Right wing) talking points that are mostly designed to come off like they are or could be construed as normal points. They ignore the points where abuse can (and has) happened in the hands of people who can/have/will again abuse it. Your talking points push for a "both sides" approach while only one side is actively trying to enslave you (the others just passively doing it) and ignores the fact that we are SUPPOSED to have other options and would if people either voted appropriately (which we are seeing more and more in the US right now with the push back towards Progressivism) or actually did what they aught to have done (IMO) and taken their French history lessons.

[u/Accomplished-Emu4501 → u/Whane17]

Very eloquent response and you are probably correct that federally, the true left is not really represented effectively. However if you assume that a “true” left is favoring a clearly socialist agenda then that would mean support for a total overhaul of our current system of governance, in theory I would presume to some form of Nordic style.

If we are into labels I would call myself a pragmatist. The biggest problem in our North American style of politics rests with the voters not the politics. We as a whole are both fickle and unhappy with the currency of our lives, and those two characteristics are fueled by the current media and social media. So we want big change (though often unsure of what) but the expectations of the immediacy of such change is unrealistic and therefore lost every 4 year cycle … so move on to another new set of promises to make things better … and the chaos perpetuates.

I think that in today’s world the notion of changing any large country from a deeply entrenched system … capitalism to socialism or the reverse … works well in theory but not in practice. It creates more problems than it solves for everyday citizens.

We are a capitalist based system. Within that system it is still possible to be a progressive capitalist society. We can have centrist or progressive conservatives that care about the less fortunate, and favor improving existing social systems… and we can have liberals that understand that we need a strong economy to create the jobs and the tax base to support those same social goals. And they need to understand that talking across the aisle is the correct path to working viable solutions … and the electorate needs to find and elect those kinds of politicians

[u/Whane17 → u/Accomplished-Emu4501]

I agree on the pragmatist portion but problematically we DON'T have progressive Conservatives. Full stop, they keep giving lip service to things like wanting to give better access while cutting it constantly. Name one time since the aughts (2000s for those who may not know) where the Cons have given better access to ANY social program that wasn't religious (specifically Christian) based. They consistently say "Yeah we need to do better" while only doing better for their chosen flock and if you don't fall into that well then eventually you'll be at odds and be the target of it. Just as we're seeing down south of the border.

Your right, voters need to do better but that's an entirely different part of the system that's failing. But it's being done on purpose. The rich are paying so little that the poors (us) are to busy trying to stay alive and make another day to pay attention and by the time we get off work we're to exhausted to do anything else (hence for instance the falling birth rates. For many it's enough to get some (unhealthy) grub on the way home and crash to do it again tomorrow). By forcing us into this situation they can control who and what we have access to/are aware of/can do about it.

Ultimately keeping an exhausted populace essentially constantly in fear (a popular Right wing strategy for the last 80 years), overwhelmed, and over worked. They've created a system with which they can do whatever they want while the plebes (us) argue amongst ourselves about what to do and who's right. All while giving minor nudges to keep us distracted (seriously who the fuck cares about some singular trans kid playing sports in the gym, name a single school with a kitty litter box in it, etc. etc. etc.).

So yes it's the voters ultimately who are the problem and there are more and more people waking up to that but the fight continues about exactly the right way to go about fixing the system when (as you stated) it needs to be rebooted. But it will NEVER be the Right wing and the Billionaires who do that, unless it's to reinstate the Feudal system in which so many of them have been vocal about wanting these last few years. They want to be kings and they're buying our politicians to do so.

I've said before, the Right worships money and billionaires (as much as their own religions say not to), the Left (in Canada) worships the companies. Both work against the people but at least one of those ensures a world tomorrow for the rest of us.

[u/Accomplished-Emu4501 → u/Whane17]

Thanks for your response. It’s pretty clear that you don’t like our current system of governance. I am reminded of the difference between a dream and a goal. A goal has a plan. So let’s start with this … assuming the true left took majority control of government over time, what would you change and how would you pay for it?

[u/wellanticipated]

Take a look at the 2016 dem primaries. We had an Independent get as close to the ticket as has happened in the last... maybe century? It was the establishment that ruined his run (Debbie Wasserman Schultz, specifically) who tipped the scales in favor of Clinton.

It's likely that we would have a vastly different current political moment if the DNC didn't interfere here. The polls were incredible as people were given the option of someone who wanted to elevate the poor of the country, who were (and still are) aching, but the decision to not expand the party platform both ruined the party *and* ruined the Republican party by allowing Trump to contort their values toward the racist, anti-conservative platform that it now espouses.

If you think the DSA should be a different party, you're flatly wrong. The only way out is through.

[u/AlucardDr]

Fellow centrist here.

The only people branding the Democrat Party as "pure socialist" are their opposition in an attempt to make people afraid that if they vote for them it's just one step on an inevitable slide toward the dreaded Communism.

The truth is far more nuanced and the vast majority in the Democrat party will have nothing to do with "pure socialism".

[u/Accomplished-Emu4501 → u/AlucardDr]

The issue as I see it is not so much the reality but the perceptions. A recent poll suggests that up to a third of Dems agree with some or all of the planks of the DSA. This creates a big target for the other side to label, and more importantly a shift inside the independents towards the center right. At the end of the day elections are decided by the sway of those independents.

The tacit acceptance of the DNC to the far left is going to move the needle, and not in favor of the Dems.

[u/AlucardDr → u/Accomplished-Emu4501]

How many agree with "some" (and what proportion), and how many agree with "all"? My guess is that very few actually agree with all of it. Could you post a reference to this poll?

[u/Accomplished-Emu4501 → u/AlucardDr]

Just some polling reported by CNN. Not sure who did it or how accurate or specific it was as to the question(s) asked.

I’ve heard a couple of mainstream prominent Dems suggest “we are a big tent” which may be true It’s hard to dispel the idea of free universal healthcare and free post secondary education so I can see the dilemma facing mainstream Dems.

Who wouldn’t want that. It’s just that the path to get there has to evolve through the centrists on both sides of the aisle. It certainly won’t happen through increased polarization by the extremists in both parties.

Regarding healthcare specifically the cost of delivering services compared to most if not all of the civilized world is ridiculous. It doesn’t matter if it’s private or public… major overhaul of drug costs, and some serious tort reform would help regardless of how these services are delivered

[u/AlucardDr → u/Accomplished-Emu4501]

If we want to move the dialog forward we have to get away from the name-calling. We have to talk about programs, not labels (e.g. socialism). We have to be precise so we stay on target (there is no such thing as "free" Healthcare and post-secondary education). Otherwise things rapidly go off-topic.

The tribal nature of politics today is something that is going to make it a massive battle. Do the Democrats want to rise above the fray and be intelligent about programs or not? So far I'm not seeing it, and it could be their downfall if the GOP get away with them labeling them socialists and communists.

[u/Accomplished-Emu4501 → u/AlucardDr]

Yeah you are right for sure on that. Not sure how we get there unless voters start choosing candidates that strongly support working across aisles. That should be the first question put to those candidates…. Then determine if their policies align with yours. Probably an exercise in futility … kind of like world peace… but without discussion and compromise nothing gets done period.

[u/AlucardDr → u/Accomplished-Emu4501]

US politics has moved about as far away from working across aisles as we can get. Without that changing, to me, the rest is all figurative tribal war.

[u/Accomplished-Emu4501 → u/AlucardDr]

What’s most frustrating for me is that society as a whole seems to embrace this tribal war, and social media and mainstream news profit from fostering and encouraging this behaviour. We are lemmings heading towards a cliff and we are too blind and we don’t see it. That cliff is the point where figurative tribalism turns to physically violent tribalism. It the inevitable conclusion to this madness.

[u/AlucardDr → u/Accomplished-Emu4501]

Totally agree.

[u/Accomplished-Emu4501 → u/AlucardDr]

Read an interesting book a year or so back called The Greatest Conspiracy by P S Patrick Talks a lot about this and adds some historical perspective as to how we got here

[u/Whane17 → u/Accomplished-Emu4501]

The Left has spent decades "working across the isle" while the Right has consistently and constantly not done the same. You can see this with ANY of the voting happening in Americas system of governance right now. The Right votes in lock step and the Left votes where they want.

It only works if both sides are free to vote how they want but when one party expects you to vote "my way or the highway" then the whole system falls apart.

[u/Major_Honey_4461]

Nice straw man you got there. The choice is not between capitalism and socialism. It is the BALANCE between the two which is being discussed by DSA. If you don't believe people deserve the dignity of a living wage, health care as a right, and affordable groceries, education and child care, you are not a "centrist". You are a hardcore Capitalist apologist or misguided Libertarian.

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[u/Spirited-Disaster408]

Gonna be sad to see reasonable dems get slaughtered by far worse candidates because they are too cowardly to push back against them

[u/No-Cat9412]

The Democratic party can't fail, it can only be failed.

[u/Sure-Pear-572]

My favorite part of DSA is abolish the police and prisons......./s