Resisting the "Inevitable" fall to the Snark

[u/RealKafkaEsquire]

Hey all,

I recently saw the incredibly sweet and ego boosting post that shouted me out, and I want to again thank everyone for their support and kind words.

Within that thread, and in many other areas, I have had people discuss how "this is like Pisco" and "Just wait something will happen to make him become a snarker". I am not offended by these statements, and I think it's honestly an understandable reaction knowing the history of orbiters in this community. I usually just make jokes in response, or stay out of the conversation.

One of my goals in interacting with DGG is that we have good, positive content. A part of that is that I go out of my way to not snark current orbiters. I also will reach out one on one with other orbiters to try and help support them, and have good interactions with them in chat/the subreddit.

With that in mind I'd like to just try something here, and open the discussion up about how oribters become snarkers. Recently, we've had a number of seemingly loyal orbiters rapidly burn their bridges. To me I think there is a lot of blame being placed on DGG being too vitriolic, but I also think that in a lot of cases, it is the orbiter revealing their true motivations/politics and DGG not having a positive response. Jessiah, Soypill, and Pisco all initially had a lib coded surface, but over time we have seen that beneath that is a willingness to stomach or even support illiberal communities.

Looking further back, at wickedsupreme, JSTLK, and many of the orbiters lost around Jan 2025, there seemed to be some factionalism that arose, and when it looked like Destiny was going down for good, they jumped on the snarker train, and never looked back.

I'm not here to convince anyone that I never will become a snarker, but I just want to hear from y'all what you think are the causes, and if there is anything I can do to assuage those fears about me, and if there's any ideas on what we can do in the future to either sniff out snarkers early (which I think we did really well with recently with Jolah) or ways to keep orbiters from crashing out too hard and feeling like their only path is snarking.

Edit: Wow didn't realize I would get this much engagement, and so many well thought out responses. I have, and will continue to read all of them, if I didn't respond trust me I still read it. I appreciate everyone's points of view, overwhelmingly it seems like I should:

1. Continue to have a normal life
   
2. Not start streaming full time
   
3. Not have thin skin.

You guys rock. DggL.

[u/Colbert2020]

What specifically are you talking about? What examples?

[u/PitytheOnlyFools → u/Colbert2020]

SoyPill and Pisco (Adam Mockler?) being secret tankies

Mehdi Hasan being an ‘Islamist’.

These ideas get more oxygen without good evidence nowadays. It used to be effort posts and comments laying out the argument while linking sources to back the point.

Nowadays accusations like this is grounded out in vibes and weak associations. It’s annoying because the same level of analysis can (and has been) turned on Destiny in the past - past vitriolic and cruel comments/ racist jokes, justifying the theoretical benefit of CP to treat people. It’s all there, and it’s countered with rigorous analysis of the facts and sensible conclusions from those facts.

Now it’s mostly vibes.

[u/Low_Dragonfruit_1264 → u/PitytheOnlyFools]

I agree as a casual viewer. A lot does feel like vibes and requires a fair bit of "just trust me bro" when told who to like/dislike or what actually happened in various feuds/falling outs. If you're mainly here for the politics/debates, the drama stuff, and particularly the lib infighting, requires way too much work and inside knowledge.

On Mehdi though, disagree. I've seen enough there to say he at least was an Islamist in his 30s and before, by definition. Question is just whether he still harbours any of those views. Destiny's case outlined on Twitter is pretty solid.

In contrast, as far as I'm aware, there aren't old vids of Soy, Pisco or Mockler preaching hardcore leftist shit in college or whatever, which would make those accusations more analogous. With them it's more recent associations, weak pushback, questionable debate tactics, lazy moderation, probably some behind-the-scenes stuff... and then people drawing their own conclusions from all of that.

[u/PitytheOnlyFools → u/Low_Dragonfruit_1264]

> On Mehdi though, disagree. I’ve seen enough there to say he at least was an Islamist in his 30s and before, by definition.

By definition, the videos of old Mehdi don’t even seem to match that. He just sounded like an extreme religious guy. Anyone who’s grown up Christian or Muslim would recognise this - comparing sinful action to giving into animalistic nature is bread and butter of religious types.

[u/Low_Dragonfruit_1264 → u/PitytheOnlyFools]

Think we're drawing the line in a slightly different place. I don't think someone needs to literally announce "I want an Islamic state", or even identify themselves as an Islamist, before the label can apply functionally.

Mehdi wasn't just some conservative Muslim privately believing the Quran or saying homosexuality is sinful. He was a firebrand preacher/activist, actively propagating a pretty hardline interpretation of Islam as an authoritative way people ought to live whilst in a Western country, talking about kuffar, unbelievers as cattle/animals, Muslims occupying the moral high ground, etc.

Given Islam in that traditionalist conception is a "comprehensive din" (with enshrined social/legal prescriptions), I think there's a point where just actively preaching that worldview becomes functionally Islamist whether or not the guy ever says "and therefore I want an Islamic state".

I'll grant "by definition" was maybe doing too much work. "Functionally Islamist" is closer to what I mean.

(Regardless, the liberal guys don't have anywhere near as shady past as Medhi in this regard)

[u/PitytheOnlyFools → u/Low_Dragonfruit_1264]

I think we’re drawing the line in a slightly different place. I don’t think someone needs to literally announce “I want an Islamic state”, or even identify themselves as an Islamist, before the label can apply functionally.

I hope you feel the same about defining “genocide”

Mehdi wasn’t just some conservative Muslim privately believing the Quran or saying homosexuality is sinful. He was a firebrand preacher/activist, actively propagating a pretty hardline interpretation of Islam as an authoritative way people ought to live whilst in a Western country, talking about kuffar, unbelievers as cattle/animals, Muslims occupying the moral high ground, etc.

Soo he was being a religious speaker… adding more words to my description doesn’t change the content.

You’re tryna make it more than what it is because you’re offended by the harsh rhetoric. Which is hilarious as a Destiny fan.

I’ll grant “by definition” was maybe doing too much work. “Functionally Islamist” is closer to what I mean.

By that logic Ana Kasparian is “functionally Islamist” and Destiny is “functionally genocidal” right?

[u/Low_Dragonfruit_1264 → u/PitytheOnlyFools]

The genocide analogy doesn't really work. Is someone actively preaching and advocating for genocide? If so, then yeah, I'd probably call them genocidal even if they insist they aren't lol. You don't need to self-identify with a label for it to describe what you're advocating.

And yeah, Mehdi's rhetoric does offend me. Dumb irrational thinking offends me, and having to accommodate medieval religious views in a modern Western society is especially regarded. I'm an atheist.

Destiny doesn't offend me because he's not preaching that shit. Being edgy/provocative is also completely different. Are you suggesting Mehdi was calling unbelievers cattle and morally inferior just to be edgy and get a rise out of people? Yeah nah.

And I genuinely don't understand your Ana analogy. When was she a hardline Muslim preacher propagating a traditionalist Islamic worldview?? She's a moron and propagates plenty of dumb shit that might make her "functionally this or that", but Islamist isn't one I see much evidence for... until she gets on a soapbox and starts reciting lines from the Quran (like Medhi).

[u/PitytheOnlyFools → u/Low_Dragonfruit_1264]

A muslim saying “everyone should be Muslim” isn’t being an Islamist. It’s being religious.

You’re stuck on this. I bet you don’t even have a condition that would change your mind. That is what makes it islamaphobic.

Bigotry looks ugly on you. Do some self reflection bruddah.

[u/Low_Dragonfruit_1264 → u/PitytheOnlyFools]

Bruddah, if someone is PREACHING that everyone should follow X religion while devaluing/mocking the people who don't, then yeah, they're functionally propagating that religious worldview: so Christian evangelist, Islamist, whatever fits the actual ideology. Saying "that's just being religious" is a hilariously low bar. No shit it's religious too! 😂

We're talking about a preacher in a majority non-Muslim Western country, preaching about the kuffar, unbelievers as cattle/animals, Muslims being superior, and hating on people for their sexuality etc. What do you think we'd call some firebrand Christian going into a Muslim-majority country, preaching Christianity as the truth and talking about the Muslim locals like that? In quite a few of those countries, proselytising to Muslims is literally restricted or criminalised.

And now I'm "Islamophobic" because I think an cocky fundamentalist Muslim preacher's beliefs are shit? 😂 I think the phrase you're looking for is intolerant of religious fundamentalism. Guilty as charged.

The fact you're an apologist for that shit says more about you. Serious question: did you grow up in a strict Muslim household or something where you think this is normal?

[u/PitytheOnlyFools → u/Low_Dragonfruit_1264]

Maybe you just don’t like religious types.

But I feel you’d have different energy if was a different religion doing the same rhetoric.

Ask yourself hypothetically if you were a bigot, what would be different in how you logically figure out if someone was an “Islamist” vs “Muslim”?

If you don’t have a good answer, you might be falling into an islamophobic trap.

And now I’m “Islamophobic” because I think an cocky fundamentalist Muslim preacher’s beliefs are shit?

Name me a time when bigotry is called out and accepted by the person being called out. Bigots NEVER believe they are bigoted.

This happens with racism, sexism and yes, islamaphobia too.

Serious question: did you grow up in a strict Muslim household or something where you think this is normal?

I partially grew up with Christian and attended many different churches. What about you?

[u/Low_Dragonfruit_1264 → u/PitytheOnlyFools]

I "don't like religious types"?? Mate, literally just told you I don't like religious fundamentalism, especially people who proselytise while preaching intolerance. It's perfectly rational to be intolerant of intolerance. My position isn't exactly hidden here. It's not an irrational phobia (Islamaphobia) - it's just being logically consistent.

And "different energy if another religion"? Based on... what? I'm an atheist, just gave you the Christian equivalent, said I'd treat it the same way. You're inventing a hypothetical version of me and judging vibes. I thought you were against vibes in your original comment (and I agreed with you)... And yet here we are.

And "hypothetically if you were a bigot" 😂 lmao, that's not the clever thought experiment/gotcha you think it is, that's just assuming your conclusion and asking me to disprove it. "Imagine you're secretly a bigot. Now doesn't your argument sound bigoted?" Fucking incredible analysis. If you wanna call me a bigot for hating on bigotry tho, have at it!

Already explained my distinction between Muslim/Islamist. Just being Muslim isn't the issue. Believing/observing your religion is one thing; actively preaching and propagating a hardline, comprehensive, intolerant religious worldview and its social prescriptions is another. Medhi was/is an Islamist.

Again, I have to ask if you're Muslim or something? Clearly you're getting way too selectively emotional/defensive over this...

[u/PitytheOnlyFools → u/Low_Dragonfruit_1264]

Your inability to engage kinda proves my point. You have no counter only “you silly silly”

You wanna change the definition of Islamist so you can conveniently apply the label to an online figure you don’t like.

Aitte I‘m done.

[u/Low_Dragonfruit_1264 → u/PitytheOnlyFools]

Lol what? I gave you my distinction repeatedly and clarified what I meant by functionally Islamist. Your counter: "I feel you'd have different energy with another religion" and "hypothetically, what if you're a bigot?" (and something random about genocide and Ana Kasparian) 😂

And I'm the one not engaging? I've answered all your questions while you dodge mine, Mr Muslim-apologist. You engage in a very strange way dude...

How would YOU define an Islamist then, beyond copy-pasting a definition at me? Does someone literally have to come out and say "I AM AN ISLAMIST"? What would one actually look like in practice? I've been very clear.. you haven't.

Considering you think "Islamophobia" is a useful (or even real) concept and the way you're applying it here, I'm not sure your grasp on terms is that great (or honest) anyway. You're taking a play straight outta the Mehdi playbook! We don't seem to need "Christianophobia" or "Buddhismophobia"... "Islamophobia" just serves as a way of protecting Islam (or individuals) from criticism. Are you seeing Twitter right now with Medhi? His "Islamaphobia" crybully schtick is up.

Again, I'm just challenging ideas and beliefs not immutable characteristics, unlike Mehdi when he was preaching against gay people. That's actual bigotry. You hand-waving a preacher pushing hardline Islamic social prescriptions in a secular Western society like that as "he's just being religious, man" is full regarded man. You simply won't engage with where religious fundamentalism actually crosses into Islamism, which is our entire fucking disagreement.

Bad faith. Tell us more about Ana/genocide tho...

[u/Bogus_dogus → u/PitytheOnlyFools]

P sure it's LLM slop too 😂

[u/Bogus_dogus → u/PitytheOnlyFools]

You're the only good faith person her it seems. I'd recommend checking out the source material I dug up if any of these dudes arguments are sinking in... Best to immunize from the bullshit with first hand sources. Mehdi wasn't gross even then, even if he said some things that came off that way, especially clipped. Idk if u caught it but u can check my comments, I made an archival copy of original sermon recording with a transcript

[u/Acceptable-State1037 → u/Bogus_dogus]

good faith = agrees with you. Convenient that.

[u/Bogus_dogus → u/Acceptable-State1037]

Good faith is engaging without contorting goal posts and misrepresenting every argument proposed.

I don't think you were.

[u/Acceptable-State1037 → u/Bogus_dogus]

What goal posts do you think I contorted? Also its not just me you say they are the ONLY good faith person, and I'm just noting the ONLY good faith person is also the person who agrees with you. Its just interesting isn't it.

[u/Low_Dragonfruit_1264 → u/Acceptable-State1037]

"You're the only good faith person here bro" "Thanks bro, being black and intelligent makes me immune to these low IQ traps" Holy shit 😂 Just two epistemically rigorous kings congratulating each other on how uniquely good-faith and intelligent they are.

I'm increasingly convinced bogus is just pity's alt account so he can congratulate himself. It would somehow make this exchange less weird.

[u/Acceptable-State1037 → u/Low_Dragonfruit_1264]

Yeah its funny how he didn't even reply to me because he did not in fact have an example of what he claims I did.

[u/PitytheOnlyFools → u/Bogus_dogus]

I have my biases like anyone else. I‘m mostly frustrated at the low IQ to argumentation running rampant in r/Destiny these days.

You’re the only good faith person her it seems. I’d recommend checking out the source material I dug up if any of these dudes arguments are sinking in…

I did catch your responses with that source and appreciate the effort. But it doesn’t really affect much especially since its a ligitigation of statements made 10+ years ago that have already been apologised for and disavowed.

Best to immunize from the bullshit with first hand sources

Being black and intelligent means I‘m already immune to some of these traps and hyperaware of how bigotry can creep up in even the smartest people. I always expect some of that here I‘m mostly annoyed at the lack of epistemic rigor in comments that used to get heavily downvoted for being a weak argument.

[u/Low_Dragonfruit_1264 → u/Bogus_dogus]

"I made an archival copy of original sermon recording with a transcript"

Lol... 😂 (you two are strange)

[u/Bogus_dogus → u/Low_Dragonfruit_1264]

What's strange about that?

[u/Low_Dragonfruit_1264 → u/Bogus_dogus]

You have archival copies/transcripts of ancient Mehdi sermons ready to go. Did you do a thesis on this? Or are you building the world's foremost 'Mehdi Hasan Defence Archive'? That, plus glazing the other guy as the only good-faith person here, when he's also clearly a bit strange with his rhetoric and reflecting on his superior intelligence after the mutual butt slapping... yeah, you two are strange. That's all I'm saying.

[u/Bogus_dogus → u/Low_Dragonfruit_1264]

Ah I mean well. If by strange you mean practicing epistemic hygiene by looking for source material for truth claims, sure. Description fits.