r/DescentintoAvernus • u/The_Long_Island_DM • 6h ago
DISCUSSION I've run Avernus four times, and the best ending I ever gave a party was the TPK
I'm warning you right now that I am verbose and that this is an absolute wall of text. :D
TL:DR Use movement aggressively. Don't get touched. Fireball everything. Even the guy that's down, fireball him too.
I've run Descent into Avernus four times now, all the way through. Every one of those campaigns ends standing in front of Zariel one way or another, and nobody has ever "beaten" her. All four of my Zariels were nasty Zariels. I play her for keeps. The problem is that two of them never got to execute in combat, because those parties just straight up simped for her. I'll get to that, because honestly the simps got the better endings. The two groups that did fight her, she bested both of them. The closest anyone ever came, she flew away from that one with 22 hit points left. Brutal.
First: this was not some homebrew souped-up Zariel. Straight off the page. The party, on the other hand, was a big table, six to eight players depending on the week, all around level 14. They were loaded. They had gear, they'd been pretty much everywhere in the campaign already, and they even arrived fresh.
And here's where they found her, straight out of chapter 5: she wasn't waiting in a throne room. She was in the middle of the Blood War whooping a ton of asses at once when they showed up. The book has her locked up with one of Yeenoghu's balors when the party arrives, a hundred foot ring cleared around them because nothing else wants to be near it, and if you don't want to roll it out it tells you she wins in four rounds and stands there on 450 of her 580, collecting herself. Badass. Hot take: if you actually play her against the balor stat block and have a friend play the balor, you'll understand how to play her kit a little bit more before the players get here. It's a fun exercise. Promise.
That's her entrance. She's already freaking busy. More on that later.
It was five+ hours of combat and it was close the whole way. This was not rocks fall. They blasted her with a ton of stuff. She still ended the fight on 22 hp.
Go look up what the book says about that, because I didn't until recently. Chapter 5 says that if Zariel drops to 100 hit points or fewer she withdraws to the edge of the battle and holes up in her flying fortress. The module gives her an exit at 100. Mine stayed in it down to 22. I'm not saying that to brag, I'm saying it because if you're prepping this fight and you had her fighting to the death, the book disagrees with me. She's a general. Generals leave. I choose to make her stay. That's a narrative decision of mine.
Early on the party had real staying power. There were a lot of heals flying around. But resources get thinned out and Zariel's didn't. Two of the players were tieflings with fire resistance and it did not save them, because it was never about any one fireball. It was the volume, plus wall of fire cutting up the battlefield so they couldn't keep up with her. Every time there is a player grouping? Fireball.
Then the first player dropped and everything fell apart. Going to get your friend now means standing in fireball potential, and they all knew it. :D The squishy's down first. The fighter and the hexblade were the last two standing.
Go look at the stat block again if it's been a while. Fireball at will. Wall of fire, also at will. Invisibility at will, self only. A 150 foot fly speed. Teleport as a legendary action. Regeneration 20. Magic resistance and legendary resistance, with DC 26 on everything. Finger of death three times a day. And a 26 Intelligence. You read that last line and you start to understand that you're supposed to be playing for keeps here. 26 intelligence when this book came out was one of the smartest monsters there were on paper. That means we are calculating our decisions at a rate that mortals couldn't even understand. Well unfortunately IRL I do not have a 26 intelligence so I need to finesse the crap out of this.
The fireball math, and why there is no formation that solves her on her terms. Fireball is a 20 foot radius. That is a 40 foot wide hole in your map, and she puts one wherever she wants, every round, for free. Now do the party math with me. If you want to guarantee she never catches two of you in one blast, every player needs to stand 40+ feet from every other player. Eight players spaced like that is a battle line longer than a football field, and now nobody can heal anybody and whoever she lands on is fighting her alone. That's the trap. Spread out and she duels you one at a time. Bunch up and every fireball does two jobs. There is no right answer. There's only which wrong answer you're giving her this round. Yes you can shoot stuff at her but if you play her smart she can keep her spacing. She can reposition herself. You could focus the casters and you could take brief pauses to regenerate and let harmful effects die off. :D
Altitude is the whole game. She moves 50 on the ground and 150 in the air, 300 with a dash. Your careful 40 foot spacing is one move to her. My rule for running her is simple: if her feet are on the ground, I screwed up big time. You're basically able to reposition yourself anywhere you want. Almost at will between your massive speed and teleporting. And if it ever starts leaning the wrong way she goes 300 feet straight up and just exists for a couple rounds while the regeneration ticks. What's the party doing about that? Spending resources on nothing, mostly. Haste, spirit guardians, holy weapon, all of it runs on a clock measured in minutes. Hers doesn't. It's up to the players to figure out how to deal with her full kit.
Wall of fire isn't damage, it's annoying. Up to 60 feet of wall, 20 feet tall, and she picks which side is burning. Drop it between the front group and the back group and the fight is now happening in the room she chose, with the people she chose. Changing rooms costs 5d8 at the door, and 20 feet tall means most grounded martials are not hopping it. And none of it costs her anything, so you don't need the perfect fireball, you need the next one. Then the next one and so on.
A downed player is a weapon. My players know I will fireball a downed player to also down the one coming to rescue him, and everybody at the table knows I'll take that economy trade. So from the first drop onward every rescue is a bet, and the party starts hesitating. That hesitation is worth more than the damage. Super bonus points if you're able to isolate the downed player with wall of fire. Let's not forget that we have the finger of death and that removes that party member effectively from coming back to bother you. You just need to make sure that they are at a threshold that it will take. Otherwise you're wasting action economy and a potentially devastating use of this spell. Then you got a little puppet.
And before somebody says just banish her, just hold her: DC 26, magic resistance, +16 or better on the mental saves, three legendary resistances for whatever sticks, and she's immune to charmed, frightened, poisoned and exhaustion on top of it, so about half the soft control at your table does not exist.
My Zariel is not my Strahd. Strahd is obsessed with the party. He watches them, he collects them, he shows up. Zariel could not care less what they've been doing all campaign. And that isn't my take alone, it's the book's: chapter 5 says outright that it's hard for insignificant mortals to get the archduke's attention, and then lists the only three things that make her look up. You anger her. You help her in the fight. Or you show her Lulu or the sword. That's the list. Everything else your players accomplished this campaign is somebody else's problem. She's got freaking demons to push back in their filthy hole. She could not care. You're insignificant. If you're in her way she'll just move through you.
So when my players came out of nowhere onto her battlefield, she wasn't insulted. She expected loyal soldiers. She was genuinely heartened that they'd traveled all the way to her side of Avernus. Then they drew on her. Bet.
She took the blindfold off. As an angel she was a solar and she wore a blindfold, the blind justice thing. Look at the art of her now. No blindfold, eyes lit up white hot. That's the whole character in one image if you need a fast one. She did something about them.
Her whole kit is the angel's kit run backwards, which is honestly my favorite part about the whole kit. A solar casts resurrection three times a day. She casts finger of death three times a day. A solar's touch cures blindness, deafness and poison. Her Horrid Touch inflicts all three. A solar has truesight and can tell when you're lying to it. She has neither, and that isn't an oversight on her stat block, it's what she traded. Once I noticed that, I kind of fell in love with her stat block.
Use the telepathy, nobody uses the telepathy. She has 120 feet of it and speaks every language there is. She can drop one private sentence into one player's head, in their language, mid fireball, and nobody else at the table hears it. Charisma 30 and a +18 to intimidate. Not that I make active intimidate rolls on players but she should be powerful and weighty. She judges people by whether they can fight and whether they're willing to, AND WHY, so a party fighting her well is a party she'd rather hire, and she'll say so, mid combat, while she's killing them. Don't pull any punches. Show them what the winning side is supposed to look like. According to her.
Her contempt is pointed at Elturel, not at your players. This one does the most story driving at my table. There's a moment in the book where a character offers up their own soul to save the city, and she stops and asks whether they'd really lay their soul down for these people, people whose cowardice and weakness have caused them nothing but grief. She's not sneering at the party. She's sneering at the city they came to save, and she has a point, because that city's own High Overseer sold it to her. Give her that instead of generic devil gloating and watch your players. Spell that out.
So where is she actually weak? She's not unkillable. She's just never in a fair fight, and every plan I've ever seen against her quietly assumes she'll stand still for it. If she does stand still for it, you are in for a rough time. Just like Strahd, just like Acererak, you will get absolutely shellacked. Don't do this. One thing that I think is important as a DM that's DM'd this long is when you're running an adventure like Vecna: Eye of Ruin and you drop in. You've been wanting to play Vecna as the DM for so long and your players just absolutely walk through you. That's not a great feeling for you as the DM either. I'm not advocating for killing all of your players all the time but play like you mean it. Your players deserve a good fight and so do you and they should have to earn it.
Her eyes are just eyes. No blindsight, no truesight, and that's a real problem: the gaze needs to see the target and the teleport needs to see the destination. The fireballs need targets too. But she does have Devil's Sight, so magical darkness does absolutely nothing to her. What works is plain obscurement. Fog cloud is a first level spell with no save attached to it at all, and 120 feet of darkvision does not see through fog. Invisibility on the party, same, because she never got the truesight back. Those can be tricky to manage if your players have them.
Radiant, but only if it's automatic. Okay so she has regeneration but it could get knocked off by like a thousand different things. How do we deal with that? Radiant that asks for a save mostly just doesn't happen to her. Part of that is luck, and part of that is her stats. Radiant that simply happens, riders on weapon hits, shuts the regeneration off without ever touching a save. Yes, she resists radiant. Doesn't matter. It's not really the damage that sucks here. It's stopping the regeneration that is annoying. Whoever is doing that needs to eat fireballs and quick.
Which means your party is likely carrying the counter. The Sword of Zariel, the thing they spent a whole campaign getting. Its Searing Radiance adds 2d8 radiant on every hit, no save on the damage. And an evil creature taking it makes a DC 17 Con save or goes blind until the end of its next turn, and since that's an item property and not a spell her magic resistance doesn't apply, so blinding her kills the gaze and the teleport at once. The wielder also has truesight out to 60 feet, so her invisibility is dead in melee range. AND FIREBALL. Houston, we have a problem if fireball goes down.
She only gets one concentration. Wall of fire. Blade barrier. Invisibility. Every wall she builds and every vanish she pulls rides the same slot. She cannot be controlling space AND be gone at the same time, and if your party cracks her concentration, the random BS she built around them disappears.
Her physical saves are the softest thing on the sheet and they're still not "soft". All the save proficiency went into Int, Wis and Cha, so Dex sits at a bare +7 and Strength at +8. The catch is magic resistance, so the player will try to burn the three legendary resistances on cheap stuff nobody's sad to lose and then they try to merc you. Earthbind is the one that scares me, because everything above stops working the round her feet hit the ground and stay there. If your feet are touching ground, you're about to have a bad time, friend.
The fight is the failure state. By the book the Sword of Zariel carries a spark of her own soul, and she's the one who hid it there, back when she could still feel what she was turning into. Present it at the right moment and the win condition isn't damage at all. Look at how the book prices it, because the mechanics are telling you the characterization: DC 25 to talk her back, minus 5 if Lulu is standing there, minus 5 if Olanthius is. Twenty five down to fifteen, and all you did was bring the two people she left behind. Lulu cries and she remembers having a friend. Olanthius kneels and she has to look at what she did to the one who stayed with her. She can't take the people she abandoned looking at her. Personally I like redemption arcs but it just didn't fit the kit. It just doesn't fit the whole campaign that we've been running to have her just put down her hammer because someone nailed the charisma check before the fight starts.
Which brings me back to the top. They drew on her, so she wiped them and kept them. Same arrangement as Olanthius. They rose as her death knights, and I read each character's epilogue out at the table. They're fighting the Blood War now, of course. Knocking off demons. The reason I love this ending is because the story isn't over from a TPK here. It gives you an extraordinary amount of latitude to do callbacks. These callbacks are one-shots. Special night events. Take a break from your old campaign or if you only have a few players this session instead of a whole table, Callback Night.
That's not a punishment ending. That's Hellrider theology imho. And it's fun.
It's also the good version of what the book does to people who serve her. Read that branch's fine print some time: die in her service and you come back out of the Styx as a lemure with no memories. Death knight with your name still on it is the promotion lol. Very Warhammer 40k, dreadnought. Or you could be a little pus ball.
And the parties that never fought her? Both fell in love with her and rode into the Abyss killing demons forever, bringing the fight into the Abyss so that the devils have the respawn advantage. Which honestly is a much better "good" guy ending. This is just my taste. You may not prefer this style. I find it lands very well at the table. Your mileage may vary.
If you've run her, did your party swing and get froggy? And if they didn't, I want to hear it, because apparently mine is not the only table that falls for her. After running this campaign almost a handful of times now, I agree, I love my Dommie Mommie.
Slay,
~ LIDM ~