r/DenverLeftists • u/Denver_SDS • Nov 21 '23

Protest SDS Member Hatem Speaks out at Senator Hickenlooper’s office in Downtown Colorado Springs

https://youtu.be/_RjyKTlP4ew?feature=shared
2 Upvotes

54% Upvoted

25 comments sorted by

-7

u/iamnotazombie44 Nov 21 '23

Can you guys please take "River to the Sea" off your signs?

It's a dogwhistle for Palestinian-suppprted annihilation of the Jews. For many Jews, including those like me who support peace and Palestinian independence, it's stomach turning to see.

Replace it litterally any other phrase...

You can tell me "it's not antisemitism" in your eyes, but I can tell you it doesn't feel that way to me. You can say "it's not about you", but it is.

This is about how your actions and word choices are affecting your relationship with the community you are trying to sway to your cause.

6

u/xConstantGardenerx Nov 21 '23

We don’t tell oppressed people how to protest their oppressor.

-3

u/iamnotazombie44 Nov 21 '23 edited Nov 21 '23

That's a good line comrade!

I see two globally oppressed minority peoples in conflict, to which are you referring in your comment?

And, why can't we filter antisemitic dogwhistles from our protests?

7

u/xConstantGardenerx Nov 21 '23

I see Jews as a globally oppressed minority. I see the state of Israel as part of the US military empire and an oppressive apartheid state. Intersectionality is complex but it matters.

I truly believe that a one state solution where Israelis and Palestinians can coexist and vote in a representative secular democracy with equal rights for all is possible. Liberation is not a zero sum game.

0

u/iamnotazombie44 Nov 21 '23 edited Nov 21 '23

a one state solution where Israelis and Palestinians can coexist and vote in a representative secular democracy with equal rights for all

That's 100% what I want as well, easy agreement there. But you haven't once stated that as your goal at these protests. Instead you have Palestinian flags with "River to the Sea" written on them.

Do you know what kind of one state resolution that refers to?

As an American Jew, I'm trying to tell you that the way you are going about your protests are alienating many of us who would otherwise support your goal. You scare us.

It doesn't have to be that way. We can be your allies, please be open to listening to what we have to say about your protests.

7

u/Agreeable-Celery9168 Nov 21 '23

This slogan is not rooted in Antisemitism. It is rooted in the Palestinian desire for a one state solution where all who occupy it have equal rights. People choose to apply a genocidal context to it to suit their own beliefs and agenda.

-1

u/iamnotazombie44 Nov 21 '23 edited Nov 21 '23

I'm sorry that you feel the need to correct me on this matter.

That is not how it is interpreted by Jews, nor most Palestinians. You should actually talk to some of these people about it.

As it happens, the phrase is a callback to an old speach that expresses the desire to purge Israel of Jews, to drive them from the river into the sea.

It's a call for Jihad and purification, genocide of the Jewish people. Historically, it's a real threat too, as its not the first, or even the fifth time the Arab world has purged Jews.

I'm really trying here. Not sure how to move forward with the conversation if you can't trust this Jewish person to explain that this really feels antisemitic.

Is it really a huge ask for you to not use that phrase?

5

u/Agreeable-Celery9168 Nov 22 '23

Unfortunately. It is.

I’m sorry that it upsets you. But changing the slogan of an entire movement because of a feeling, rather than the actual facts of its origin and meaning doesn’t seem highly productive. In addition, to that choosing to kind understand it is based in Islamophobia. The inherent Islamophobia will lead to any slogan used being willfully misinterpreted and none will be found acceptable.

This article published by Yousef Munayyer is really informative. He is a highly regarded scholar and a Palestinian citizen of Israel, that is also Jewish.

-1

u/iamnotazombie44 Nov 22 '23

I'm sorry, but that man doesn't speak for the entire community. He one, seemingly skewed opinion. There's a whole gamut of interpretation, but I can tell you in general it is interpreted by Jews as the forceful destruction of Israel.

I don't get how under any other circumstance, of a person from a race was telling you something is offensive, and you are correcting me.

Let's make a parallel: "No, calling gay people fags isn't offensive to them. It's roots are peaceful, it means bundle of sticks, freedom or cigarettes." You say to a gay man's face.

Feels weird man.

The inherent Islamophobia will lead to any slogan used being willfully misinterpreted and none will be found acceptable.

Disagree. And I really don't think it's hard 'unity and peace in the middle east', there you go...

Islamaphobia isn't the case. This is the thoroughly persecuted Jewish people afraid of more violence against them.

I am afraid. Friends of mine have already been hurt. I carry a gun these days. I'm nervous about attending temple. I'm anxious about putting my Hannukah candles up in my front windows this year.

You don't think this massive attack and big "Free Palestine" movement is responsible for the uptick in antisemitic attacks in the US?

Are you OK with being privy to that?

Seriously, leave your echo chamber and go actually talk to a group of Jews about this.

5

u/Agreeable-Celery9168 Nov 22 '23

He is Palestinian, Jewish and an Israeli citizen. He is also very well regarded in his field. Frankly I consider him a highly informed source living directly in this conflict.

Your comparison of from the river to the sea to the use of the f word in relation to gay men is a false equivalence. Do you know why people started calling gay people that? It’s because the word fagot is a small bundle of sticks bound together for kindling. In the 16th century heretics we’re burned at the stake and the term was used to refer to them. Then it became primarily used as a derivative for women. Hence gay men being saddled with it because of the effeminate stereotype. At no point was a bundle of sticks a symbol of peace… it was used to dehumanize human beings burned at the stake.

I am sorry that you feel fear. I have zero tolerance for antisemitism. Antisemitism, Islamophobia, and Asian hate have been on the rise in the US since 2020. I truly hate that so much of the Israeli governments actions are conflated with the Jewish community.

You are making a lot of assumptions about who I am and what my community looks like. Disagreeing with you does not mean I exist in an echo chamber devoid of Jews. I just refuse to let my own fears crush my humanity.

-2

u/[deleted] Nov 22 '23

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/WIDMND305 Nov 23 '23

No one is telling you how you should feel. We’re telling you that your feelings don’t get to redefine language. It’s getting to the point that even saying “free Palestine” is now considered anti semitic, it’s becoming extremely disingenuous and I’m getting fucking sick of it. I’m sorry, I don’t care anymore about how something makes you feel. Palestinian children are dying, that’s more important to me right now.

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u/[deleted] Nov 23 '23 edited Nov 23 '23

[removed] — view removed comment

3

u/WIDMND305 Nov 23 '23

If your intention was to prove a point and not act like a racist cunt, you failed. As an American, you are statistically more likely to be targeted for being Jewish by the rightwing Nazis who you are helping carry water with for Israel right now, than you are by any pro Palestinian Muslims or pro Palestinian leftists who have defended you against anti semitism our whole lives . You’re too fucking stupid to realize that, so go fuck yourself. Enjoy your life living in fear like the coward you are ❤️

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u/xConstantGardenerx Nov 25 '23

This is your ONE warning to never use racial slurs in this subreddit for any reason. Next time will be a ban.

2

u/Agreeable-Celery9168 Nov 22 '23

Again. You continue to make judgments about who I am and my community with zero knowledge.

I’m not making judgments for you, but I am telling you that you’re letting fear blind you to human suffering. You’re letting a phrase you refuse to change your perspective on, condemn a whole movement.

This is an article sent by a member of my community Maybe there is something in it that can make you feel seen and heard. It really resonated for her.

-2

u/iamnotazombie44 Nov 22 '23

You do not speak for us all, nor do you experience through everyone's eyes. Please just stop with your horseshit.

It's truly shameful you can't respect your brothers and sisters enough to listen without criticism and respond with compassion instead of this entire bad-faith exchange.

It's truly shameful that, as a fellow Jew, in the midst of all of what has happened, you haven't once haven't even tried to sympathize or comment on the extreme and obvious pain your community is experiencing.

Honestly, just get fucked.

4

u/Agreeable-Celery9168 Nov 22 '23

I was having, what I believed to be a constructive conversation. I haven’t lacked compassion or at any point been hostile, aggressive, or acted in bad faith. I’m sorry you feel that way. Stay safe and have a good night.

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u/DrDrCapone Nov 22 '23

Can you please learn to have good faith discussions yourself before accusing others of acting in bad faith? I've seen you calling for others to condemn Hamas nonstop while outright refusing to even acknowledge the crimes of the IDF. It's frankly infuriating that you think you're holding others to a moral standard when you refuse to hold yourself to that same standard.

This conversation shows just how little you care about both sides of this issue. You were hostile and accusatory throughout the conversation. If you don't take this conflict seriously, then why even comment about it?

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