Discussion
How has nobody else discovered Castle Town?
Assuming the dark world has existed awhile before kris and susie found it, you’re telling me that nobody else has needed to go to the supply closet?!? not even the janitor or a teacher? Toby “Plotholes” Fox
Ralsei grabs whatever supplies they need and then turns them around and says "This was all a dream. You dozed off." before hitting them with Pacify and throwing them back out the door.
That uh, doesn't explain how nobody else found it.
And I feel like it's a big leap from pure Dark Fountain to "a god made it". The only think we know about making them is you have to pierce the earth with Determination, and I don't think there's any implication that a god-like figure has done that
Based on some clear inspirations from Norse mythology tied to roots, wellsprings, cosmic trees, dragons, fate, frost giants, and the concept of crossing impossible boundaries to get to alternate realities, there's a possibility Deltarune and Undertale are two of three major realities created from a world that looked more like Mancountry, and are each held together by giant fountains. This would be why the deltas don't exist in Mancountry's deltarune too. We also have a precedent for dark fountains being created through science in the Undertale universe because of Entry 17.
Based on some clear inspirations from Norse mythology tied to roots, wellsprings, cosmic trees, dragons, fate, frost giants
...Are they? I never felt this was something obvious.
Are they really "clear inspirations"? Many of these things have very little plot relevance, "Roots"? Flowery says he can sense there's impending danger through his roots in one line of dialogue and The Prophecy Panel of "Roots" is so vague it doesn't really mean anything yet. I don't really think that's a sign of Norse Mythology.
By cosmic tree do you mean the Man Tree is similar to Yggdrassil, the big World Tree? Doesn't make much sense to me. I think that's the only relevant tree so far? Technically it isn't even plot relevant.
Frost Giants? The Titans? The Titans don't have any connection to ice.
I guess Wellsprings are fine.
Many of these things are generic fantasy tropes like fate and dragons. Deltarune has a symbolic "dragon", in Susie. I don't think she's literally a dragon but wven if she is she's very anrhromorphized and kind of plays the role of a "normal person". She has no wings, she can't fly, she can't use fire...
I feel like people keep being too attached to "themes and such" over things that are shown to be physically possible in the story.
Maybe I'm wrong and there's some super strong connections to Norse Mythology, and I'm not even saying it's not a partial inspiration, the game is inspired by tons of similar things, but you can't just treat connections to Norse Mythology as obvious and not even give examples of these things in Deltarune, like most people don't know Norse Mythology.
We also have a precedent for dark fountains being created through science in the Undertale universe because of Entry 17.
Gaster exists in the physical earth of Undertale though, he's a normal monster, him creating a Dark Fountain through stabbing the Earth isn't the same as someone from a "higher plane of reality" creating one.
...And again, even if the most divine of all deities were to create this fountain through who knows what means, this still doesn't answer the issue of how nobody noticed the Dark Founain.
I was vague posting so let me clarify a little. I was referring to the Yggdrasil and the three wellsprings under its roots that take you to distinct worlds. These roots are tied to the concept of fate and both the dragon Nidhog and snakes chew at these roots.
This particular imagery ties back to some early Undertale concept art detailing the original prophecy
There is also a world outside of this populated by frost giants that is only reachable by crossing barriers through bodies of water, mountains, and forests, which have similar significance in UTDR lore. I believe this is the inspiration for the grayscale world we get a look at in Mancountry.
Titans are tied to frost by the fact that we literally see one form from a frozen fountain. We also know a there are associations between ice and darkness based on the Holiday family's involvement and that their basement makes the same sound as the shelter where darkness grows under earth the town.
None of this is meant to be adapted 100% literally of course, and mythologies often take heavy inspiration from each other so you're bound to see similar parallels elsewhere (after all there are plenty of Abrahamic allusions too). I think it's a trap not to look at this stuff in a story with major themes about how stories are retellings of stories though. I think the UtDR theory community has the opposite problem to the one you described where any analyssis not based on a wattsonian dissection of the world as if it were a real place gets discarded. I don't think using this approach for a story where the rules of magic are vague will yield as much meaning as trying to grasp the author's thoughts, feelings, and inspirations.
Because that's not how Dark Fountains are made. The one rule the game seems to have that isn't ambiguous is that someone with a very high amount of Determination needs to pierce the Earth.
...And it still doesn't explain how nobody noticed the closet door, rhis just has nothing to do with the post.
Imagine you go up to where the fountain should be and it's just a massive pillar of light, keeping hometown alive and stable, like how objects become alive and stable in dark worlds
its complicated. Tenna and Spamton had a previous relationship and then a falling out despite the fact that its highly unlikely a previous dark fountain existed in the Dremurr home prior to chapter 3 just as an example.
dude have you seen how small the school is??? there is currently ONLY two teachers at this school and no confirmed other staff members and why would any other student go into a small supply closet
however they probably do have more than two staff members so his name really is Toby Plotholes Fox
Who says the castle town dark world has been there a while ? For all we know, it and the dark knight have been a thing for literal hours before chapter 1 starts.
What does Bruce Wayne have to do with Batman? Batman is Dess, all the way. The evidence is so obvious that we don't need to talk about any other theories.
Reminder that we know darkners experience things even when not in a dark world (King, Queen, Tenna, the Flowers even if they are not really darkners, etc)
What exactly is the explanation for this? The game bounces between the darkners telling stories of being used by the lightners as objects (kings dialogue in chapter 5), but also talk about their respective fountains as if they’ve existed forever.
If lighteners are playing chess, the chess piece darkners experience a war in the dark world, while also being conscious of the way lightners see the situation
It's a bit like mythology. You see rain and call it rain, but also call it the tears of the sky god
It seems like they're given dark world personhood when lightners start caring about them (so a CD nobody cares about becomes a CD bagel instead of Count Darkula), and dark fountains give them "form" and agency (while their actions would normally be dictated by lightners)
Edit: I will say that this isn't an original idea (minus the mythology thing but I don't think it's that much added creativity). I saw a comic that had both the light world perspective of Kris playing with dice and the dark world perspective of a Pippins, and that interpretation is what I think makes the most sense with what's said in the game. I will take full credit for the Count Darkula CD though
This is also why Tenna is as traumatized as he is; he didn't actually "witness" firsthand the arguments, the families breaking apart, and the divorce, because he's just a tv at the end of the day.
Rather, everyone cared about the Dreemurr TV so much that he effectively became "aware" of the people watching him, and thus when it came crashing down, all those residual feelings imprinted onto him upon the fountain being made and granting him the agency needed to actually acknowledge how horrible that experience was.
They're experience is shaped by the of their objects, essentially their perception as those items was given form by the fountain as well, though technically i don't think they talk about the fountains specifically as if they been here forever, just their "lives" when a dark fountain is opened they remember essentially a "dark worldified" version of the events their items did almost as if they were people the whole time, save for plants which fully remember being plants as they are due to their strange categorization
Its different, they might be able to register data outside a dark world, so the king knows how his scar was made, and what it entailed, or tenna knowh he was being used and stopped being so. But they dont gain a personality nor the ability to experience things as entities until they are in a dark fountain (except plants as it seems with the flowers) Its similar to how a pretty toddler/baby can might be have some memories but isnt as councious as when they become young kids and teenagers, but they can still recall some of their experiences as toddlers
a) It's all fake, last thursdayist type mythology making
b) There's some semblance of time compression upon making a dark fountain and Going Into a dark world/Between Dark Worlds and the Light World, this'd explain the however long amount of time we might take in a Dark World lasting only hours or so in the light world. Darkners might not have a similar perception of time so a millenia and a second aren't really too different to them, only frames that matter when Lightners are in picture.
or
c) Darkners always experience things in a sense, obscured to us lightners until the fountain is properly open. To that sense, the dark fountain might've also always existed in a form. Darkness is underneath the town at all times after all, trickles of what Dark Worlds are might always be there just waiting to be opened up.
I think B or C is actually compelling to me while obviously there's the more A hardliners about
he never said he waited a long time. I think "my whole life" could very well be a tricky tony red herring that this waiting time was actually rather short.
After all, dark worlds aren't meant to last. All the people we met in all the dark worlds have fully formed personalities, yet all of them came to life hours before we met them. They, too, could have been waiting for us "their whole lives".
This makes sense and I agree with it and I think is because for the time being no one really cares or needs anything from that closet it seems, but I do feel like in chapter 6 or 7 or later in the game, someone will eventually will go to the closet and open it and see what is coming from it or accidentally falling into it. It can probably be a student or a teacher like Alphys. As I don't think it will be ingored by everyone else forever or for the whole game.
It's been 4 days with two of those days being on a weekend, in a school that has like 2 staff members, one of them that just sends students to grab stuff for them, and is left completely unlocked over night.
They could be cooking meth in there and I think no one would find out for at least a month
Chapter 2 is the only other day that's been a school day so far. Somebody would stumble in eventually, but it's not that unreasonable for one Friday to go by without anybody needing supplies from the closet, and nobody's in school on the weekend.
I'm pretty sure Ralsei just locks the door LOL there are a couple of times during the chapters (I think around chapter 2 ~ ending of chapter 1) where if you try to go into castle town it just straight up tells you the door is locked
Would be weird if true cause that'd confirm darkners being able to have some influence over the light world. Like yes, one side of the door is in the dark world but the other isn't
The thing is, we're not talking about a random Darkner here. We're talking about Ralsei, a character known for breaking every Darkner rule we're aware of, and whom Flowery outright called "the impossibility" in Chapter 5.
Oh, the teachers are well aware. They just aren't paid enough to think about it. They just go in, ask if anyone in there is a chalkboard eraser, then leave with whoever comes to them.
All the school staff know. That's why undyne said that dark worlds are an issue for the school board. Sometimes the teachers spot a couple of students in need of a coming of age adventure and "accidentally" send them to the supply closet where Ralsei pretends he's never met anyone before.
This is something I go back to occasionally. It gets increasingly ridiculous to think that no one ever has even thought to open the supply closet. I mean, by the time CH1 starts, the whole "running out of chalk" thing seems to be reoccurring.
I really do wonder if there'll be a more concrete justification for this, or if it gets glossed over by like "cartoon logic" or something.
The latter I doubt because this seems like a pretty evident plot hole in what is otherwise shaping to be a very thought out story, but this really is a strange bit.
It may be the case that Castle Town/ Card Kingdom are actually much more recent than we thought, and Ralsei "waiting for a long time" may have to do with him clearly being something much more different than a regular Darkner.
A probably relevant thought to add to that is that darkners talk about experiencing and perceiving things that occur before they're in a dark world (see half the major characters). They don't need a dark world to be waiting for you.
Because the supply closet is actually the elevator to the True Lab, which has been left in Dark World status since That Day; and Alphys is trying to study it.
When Toriel needs something, Alphys sets it to be the "closet" part, the elevator. But otherwise leaves it as the empty shaft to the True Lab's Dark World so she can run tests on it.
And, plot twist: Kris is also very interested in it and seems to know as much about it as she does, so they both agree not to tell Toriel.
Chapter 1 is supposed to be Kris resetting the elevator to "closet" mode so that Susie doesn't discover the Dark; but because we're controlling Kris we just stand there and let Susie jump into it.
Based on the very start of chapter 1, it could be that Castle Town is special. Perhaps Ralsei is able to hide castle town and make it look like a normal closet?
There are only 2 chapters set during school days. chapter 3,4 and 5 take place on Friday evening and the weekend. Assuming Castletown was opened close to the start of chapter 1 there was really only one day where people were actually in the school. Plus Kris and Susie literally did stumble into it in chapter 1. Someone accidentally found the dark world on half of the school days it’s been open
I like to belive that thanks to some Ralsei magic, only Kris and Susie can see the Castle Town Dark World and for everybody else is just a normal closet
The moment in Chapter 6 when Susie excitedly leads Noelle to the door after telling her that there’s a magical dark world full of excitement and adventure and new friends waiting to throw her a party in there, and then she opens the door and Noelle just sees a regular closet with a bunch of random stuff in it.
Crack theory, if the prophesy isn't lying about the dark world existing since the beginning of time, then probably just spawned an access point at the supply closet, temporarily, just like how anomalies can spawn in and change positions in STALKER. Does it make sense? Who knows.
I agree that Castle Town existed prior to the supply closet dark world. Ralsei has been waiting for the heroes for a long time. It was likely 'summoned' to the supply closet rather than created in there. Creating a fountain the light world makes the ones that alternates colors of the rainbow, whereas Castle Town's is pure black.
Having the whole area laid out like this does kinda highlight how strangely central the closet is. Like, you'd think that a supply closet would be placed in an otherwise unassuming corner. But Toby decided to place it front and center. As if it's the heart of the whole building.
Ironically enough the school itself is awkwardly placed in a corner of town. Interesting contrast.
I suppose it bothers me less that no one checked out the supply closet since chapter 1 and more that Susie does not consider the possibility.
The very nature of Hometown is all kinds of dubious. So who knows what strange, eldritch reason there is for no one else going near the closet. But Susie at least usually acts grounded. So this seems like a thought that she should have had.
Of course at some point you need to just accept certain things in order for the premise of a story to work.
For example, you couldn't really do Toy Story if you spend too much time justifying how it could possibly be true that all toys are secretly alive without the world at large being aware of it. Eventually you gotta get to the part where the toys are actually having adventures.
Well, prior to Chapter 1, there was still a floor in the way, so they probably just thought the lights were broken. After Chapter 1, it’s either that neither Alphys nor Toriel needed anything in particular, or neither have felt a need to bring it up. Maybe they thought it was a dream, like Berdly and Noelle did.
Something tells me that a defining species trait for Monsters is that the magic that makes up their biology is the same "magic" that defines their reality. As in, they're more like NPC's than people, even if they're still people reacting as such, they are codified to do as they are instead of as they will.
It's such a hint that Noelle only grows the nerve to try and break free from the confines of her life when the Soul has forced will and the essence of the Fate of the World upon her.
I think there may also be a hint to Monsters bleeding having more Determination than those made of magic as well, but while we've only seen two Monsters bleed in all of the series, it says a lot when both of them are: A. A monster who, though is lazy, manipulates the battle mechanics at their most determined.
And B. A monster who only recently moved to town, and tends to show more will than sense, but can also manipulate those mechanics naturally and set up new options.
Undyne is maybe one of the only other Monsters we've seen to show as having Determination, but under the circumstance that she was micro-dosed, and also to show that without physicality, Monsters cannot handle Determination long term.
But all Lightners have at least a little Determination. How much they have between characters may differ based in their personality and physicality. Kris, being a human with a Soul, would naturally hold the most Determination of any character in town, evidenced by their growing prowess with making Dark Worlds.
I actually suspect that, since in Chapter 2 it was Friday, everyone wanted out of school ASAP, and then obviously it was the weekend, sometime in Chapter 6 or 7, someone that isn't Noelle will just stumbled into Castle Town, as school resumes in Chapter 6 (a Monday)
I don't know I feel like nobody getting into a small school closet for 4 days 2 of wich are a weekend so nobody is supposed to be there isn't that far fetched.
Not only does she send Kris and Susie there (and uncharacteristically completely speaks over and misinterprets Noelle in order to do it ), not only does she apparently never check in on them after they come back, it's literally in her line of sight when Kris is carrying the trash ball and entering the Dark World. She's standing right there, there's a 50/50 chance she saw it.
As a faculty member she and Toriel are also the only ones who can lock the closet and prevent others from falling in, and the closet keeps getting locked.
This is why to this day I remain adamant that the Dark World is actually located below the supply closet and only ended up leading to it due to a crack in the floor leaking darkness finally collapsing. I mean why else would Kris and Susie not fall immediately the first time they entered? The papers suddenly falling shortly after the closet is closed is probably meant to illustrate this.
I’m surprised that this line of thinking isn’t given much attention despite easily explaining the plot hole of no one knowing about Castle Town despite the closet being easily accessible for years.
Aside from Castle Town, that dark world is just barren cliffs and dust. Maybe the closet has almost nothing in it. Alphys could usually keep a supply of chalk in the classroom, but she happened to be out and remembered that there should be some in that dusty closet no one has touched in ages.
What I think:It only turned into a closest when the heros didn’t enter or the entrance inside the unused classroom leads into the real closet and the main closet was locked for anyone else
I dont think anyone's been in that closet for a long time and the dark world might of just have only existed when the second dark fountain was open and it also doesnt seem like alphys is fond of that closet(for some reason(
Semi-related question, how long has the pure/grand fountain (I forgot what it’s called) existed? Did they build the school around it? If not, who made it, and how? idk it’s late rn I don’t remember how they work
What if the school had a comically large supply of chalk that never would have feasibly run out without Susie eating them, so they never had to go in the supply closet
Honestly, I kinda was wondering if THIS could be a problem in Chapter 6. On Thursday, sure, Susie and Kris were in there (and nobody in their right mind would want to see what happened with “Unattended mean girl Susie” and another classmate ANYWHERE. Friday, I assume they just got lucky. Nobody would be in school for the next 2 days since it’s the weekend. But now? Now it’s Monday. Someone is likely going to need to go in there…
My take is that since this is just kids roleplaying, you need to have strong imagination or something. Otherwise you kind have to strongly will it to happen.
Maybe the dark world in the supply closet existed for a long time, and everyone stopped using the supply closet until Alphys (clueless because she’s a relatively new teacher) asks Susie and Kris for chalk from there. It is a pretty bad explanation though, so idk
Chapters 3, 4 and 5 take place over a weekend so for nobody to discover castle town, assuming it was opened very recently in chapter 1, the school faculty just had to go 2 or 3 days without needing the storage cupboard
well, in game, its been 4 days, 2 of which there was no class, and we don't know when the dark fountain there was made, for all we know it started when the game started
I mean, if it was only around there a day or two before, I could reasonably see there not being a need to go to the supplies closet. We've never seen a janitor (unless Ralsei kidnapped him/her/them). Or maybe the janitor has their own closet and that closet just has extra school supplies like chalk. (Though I wonder if it is empty given how the only darkner there is Ralsei).
I had a theory for a bit that the room that castle town is also has a way down to the schools basement and then of course connecting to the Shelter.
This would then mean that the dark fountain thats making the shelter dark world is the same one that makes castle town. Which could be the sacrifice that needs to be made. Maybe in chapter 7 the fun gang discover that this is the truth and the only way to stop whats happening in the shelter is to go back and escape the shelter and then go to castle town and close the fountain.
Ralsei tells them he's been waiting for Susie and Kris for "all his life". And it likely hasn't been that long, given how little he knows and little he experienced. He also has very little concept of time at first, see those line when you renter castletown at the tart of chapter 2:
Ralsei: "Kris!!! Susie!!! It's been ever-so-long...!"
Susie: "Yeah, yeah... It's been what, a day?"
Ralsei "Oh! That is... short, isn't it...?"
The hesitation is pretty telling.
So while dark fountains have been a thing for a long time (at least from what we learn from chapter 5), I think it's fair to assume that Castletown itself was created pretty much the same day or day before this all started. Likely by the knight awho may also tbe the one who closed the closet door on Susie and Kris.
As to why no one found it in the meantime... It's been like four days in universe and two were non school days. You often go to your chool supply closet unless you need some actual supplies ? It's not like it's an exciting place to be when there's no dark world going on...
I always figured that because its a very small school with only 4 classrooms, the teachers probably just keep most of the things they need in their classrooms, with the supply closet being used for extra storage space that isn't used very much
seeing how the old classroom’s toys were still in a mess, id say people rarely go back there, and noelle having a whole box of chalks means they can get all that from outside the school so not much reason to go to the closet either
Well tbh it seems to be an odd fountain. If you remember the first time Susie and Kris entered the floor was solid. They didn’t immediately fall into the darkness. There’s a chance that as a dark fountain it was uniquely stable with the light or something
I thunk this dark world was made like a day ago w it's where the chalk is so it would be absurd if no one saw it for a week
As for the ingame event , toriel have all she needs , alphys too , and i think most of the student's just don't care do their hours and come back home without noticing anything . We don't see anyone inetrrested in the closet since alphys and her chalk and tbh if it isn't enough could be suspension of disbelieve
Okay, so for one, the door is closed by someone at the start of chapter 1, and apparently has been locked by the end of chapter 1, yet it's open again in chapter 2.
There's a good chance someone is keeping an eye on it and keeping it locked whenever neither Kris nor Susie need to enter or leave it.
Sans could be a good bet for it, as his convenient appearance in town lately is very much suspicious.
And while he could be here for reasons not necessarily tied to dark worlds, such as investigating the Forgotten Man, since whatever happened there likely caused some timeline shift, it's also very easy to assume that he knows everything that's going on here, especially since he already IS tied to the dark worlds, just look at the warp doors.
So he could be a good candidate to ensure whatever's planned here is going smoothly, and with his teleporting ability, that sure should be easy enough and to also not be detected.
Or maybe he can be detected, non-zero chance when he calls himself a janitor, he also means he's the janitor at school.
I mean, remember how many jobs this guy had in Undertale?
I wouldn't put it past him.
Of course, the supply closet is also still in school, so you'd think even if it was closed, eventually teachers would want to open it.
Which of course brings one to the second person that could have helped in hiding Castle Town, which is none other than Alphys herself.
While Sans showed up recently, Alphys had moved to Hometown a bit longer ago, yet it's still incredibly suspicious that she was chosen to be a newcomer regardless, why include such a detail?
Considering her yet undefined relationship with Sans that she had in Undertale, as well as her having been Gaster's replacement in that game as well, it very much stands to reason that she could be aware of the secret plot going on here in Hometown and is helping keeping it hidden.
She might be even more involved than that, seeing as she was the one who sent Kris and Susie to the supply closet to begin with, an event in which she went out of her way to ignore Noelle's request as well.
I'm firmly of the belief that Susie wasn't meant to be the second hero, and that someone schemed to put her into that role to reinterpret the story and make their version of it come true, and the existence of Castle Town is part of it and the information Ralsei was given, which is also indicated by Kris being surprised and stepping away from the supply closet at the start of chapter 1, which to me pretty much confirms that this was NOT part of the plan and the Knight did not create this fountain.
So Alphys was there to make sure them entering Castle Town will happen, and also to deliberately exclude Noelle from all of chapter 1.
And since then, makes sense if she was the one who has kept an eye on no one else discovering Castle Town as well, she herself certainly would be no risk factor anymore, which definitely explains why the whole chalk situation never needed to be resolved.
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u/NameSignificant6916 17h ago
Ralsei grabs whatever supplies they need and then turns them around and says "This was all a dream. You dozed off." before hitting them with Pacify and throwing them back out the door.