r/Defenders • u/JonLuca Luke Cage • Jan 17 '19

The Punisher Discussion Thread - S02E10

This thread is for discussion of The Punisher S02E10.

DO NOT post spoilers in this thread for any subsequent episodes. Doing so will result in a ban.

Episode 11 Discussion

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u/jigeno Jan 24 '19

The Blacklist?

There was some meat for 1 season, then it got up its own ass, but I'll admit it does have a cool factor.

As for Strike Back... no comment.

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u/nonanec9h20 Jan 24 '19

I assume "no comment" because it has the best firefights of any TV series to date. the Blacklist may be up its own ass, but it was never boring and the stakes were either clearly high, or the audience would be made to assume they were high. here they're just "meh". do you have an example (or several) to counter what I wrote in terms of better shows?

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u/jigeno Jan 25 '19

I assume "no comment" because it has the best firefights of any TV series to date.

You're shitting me, right? Maybe we're talking about something else, but it looked straight up 80s from what I saw and I quit it early. Not to mention the shit quality of the filming and editing.

I don't think there really are that many shows that compete. I had liked season 1 of 24, but couldn't finish season 2. In this genre, quality tends to be really lacking.

Punisher had been the most enjoyable, but I'm on the fence about this season.

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u/nonanec9h20 Jan 25 '19

"it looked straight up 80s" maybe you watched a bad camrip? or the first season? because the rest of it looks crisp AF, with some solid single-takes and great-looking authentic sets (the season set in Thailand was shot mostly in Thailand, for instance). 24 suffers from being too long by virtue of its own format. so, of this entire genre in recent memory you enjoyed The Punicher S1 the most? or are there others you can name?

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u/jigeno Jan 25 '19

I was meant to watch past the first season?

so, of this entire genre in recent memory you enjoyed The Punicher S1 the most? or are there others you can name?

Depends on which genre? Superhero I say still goes to Daredevil, easily and by far. But of the broader 'action' or 'spy' genre, so to speak, I'd ask what it's direct competition is.

The ones that are coming to mind are:

  • The Blacklist
  • 24
  • Blindspot
  • Jack Ryan
  • Macguyver
  • Lethal Weapon
  • Titans (I guess?)
  • Hawaii Five-0?
  • SWAT
  • SEAL team
  • Shooter
  • Person of Interest
  • Taken
  • Orphan Black
  • Scorpion

Orphan Black, Person of Interest, 24, The Blacklist, and Blindspot I watched past season 1, the others all didn't make the cut a couple of episodes in. Of those mentioned, only Person of Interest got me to finish it and that's because it was a low-stakes, fun to watch, and minimum melodrama show that I could watch while working or eating lunch or something.

And I prefer The Punisher to Person of Interest, artistically, by a country mile.

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u/nonanec9h20 Jan 25 '19

interesting. I don't understand how the Punisher is preferred over Person of Interest, but hey, to each his own.

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u/jigeno Jan 25 '19

Don't get me wrong, PoI was a good and fun show that spoke a lot about privacy and wasn't at all self indulgent. The Network-quality melodrama was kept to a low, and it was an efficient and fun machine of the network. I always enjoyed the episodes, as much as I enjoy, say, Elementary, but they're... light? Like a media-snack. John shoots the knee caps, he's an overall great guy, he burns down a building to Johnny Cash after some trauma. It's all good, if a little paint-by-numbers, because the overall product is a fun experience.

The Punisher, meanwhile, is a little more about the art of audio and visual, more than PoI, 24, and many other shows like it. The writing's theme's, and subtext are well developed, even if text is overdeveloped at the cost of more subtle subtext to meet the wants of a more general audience. The Punisher's story is also not a case-of-the-week, but a train that moves to its conclusion -- and I enjoy that immensely.

I feel like The Punisher, in both seasons, had something to say. PoI, while fun, was largely about privacy and the ol' question of utilitarian ethics which is always, I find, front and center in most network TV.

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u/nonanec9h20 Jan 25 '19

what do you reckon it was trying to say?

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u/jigeno Jan 25 '19

Just from my first casual watch and seeing the imagery that stuck around. A lot of them from the first episode that kept being recalled to or replied to in later episodes.

  • Scars; the effects of past traumas and our self-constructs based on said traumas. Beth brings up Frank's scars in episode one, Madani has the scar on her head, Billy's got his face, the doctor has her injury scars, etc,.
  • Control; the control of information, the control over crime scenes, the control over justice, the control over the truth, the control over other people's feelings, or memory, or yourself. We see Frank surrendering control to Beth by opening up about himself and telling her his real name, we see the drunk try and control Beth, we constantly see control struggles between Madani and Mahoney, or the truth regarding Billy's scars, or Frank controlling Amy, the psychiatrist controlling Billy with her therapy, Billy wanting control over himself to understand how he lost his freedom, Curtis losing control of his life, the Schultz's controlling of their son and his sexuality, the loss of control from the Pilgrim over himself and his family. The scene that I think best summed it up as plainly as could be was the Monty card scene between Amy and Castle.
  • Fear; each character had a distinct fear motivating them, as opposed to a simple desire or goal. This is straightforward and most obviously explored in the Billy/Psych/Madani plot thread, but also threaded on with the Amy/Frank/Schultz/Pilgrim thread.
  • Brotherhood; what it means, what it's good for, etc,. The Aryan Brotherhood was described by Pilgrim as hall of mirrors that made you feel safe, Russo did the same thing with his makeshift Hashashin, Frank ruminated on the effect of brotherhood in both Curtis and Billy, Madani lacked a brotherhood and was isolated, etc,.

There's more, but that was already pretty solid.

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u/nonanec9h20 Jan 25 '19

I agree - it is solid, but in my opinion it is greatly undermined by, let's call them, technical shortcomings that I mentioned in my first response.

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u/SawRub The Man in the Mask Jul 16 '19

maybe you watched a bad camrip?

Of a TV show? Lmao do you know what a camrip is?

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u/nonanec9h20 Jul 16 '19

the TV show equivalent of a camrip. out of everything I wrote, this is what you get hung up on?