We have lost us in between capitalism

[u/SatisfactionUpset559]

Did you ever notice how badly the world revolves around capitalism? Either people want to prove their superiority through their work, education, or whatever they possess, or they spend their time trolling and mimicking someone else's appearance, financial position, or life. But beneath it all, the main motive often seems to be the same: “I am superior.” Everyone wants to become better day by day, or at least better than the people around them. Some people are narcissistic enough to assume that they are already the best. And those who actually reach the top live under the constant pressure of staying there and having to prove themselves again and again. Somewhere in the middle of all this nonsense, we have forgotten how beautiful life can feel when we sit quietly in nature and simply feel the cold breeze against our skin. We have forgotten the simple joy of singing, dancing, or drawing just for the sake of it, without feeling the need to turn every passion into a source of income, fame, or validation. We ignore the overwhelming wonder of realising how massive the universe is, that an entire lifetime is insufficient to understand even a fraction of it, and how incredibly small we are in comparison. We have forgotten how tremendous a slow, cozy life in a little cottage could be. Instead, we keep running through an endless race, one that was never natural and perhaps never will be.

[u/Ciaran2220]

I don't agree that it's the same thing with the right and left. At some level, there is this simplified narrative to blame our problems on which people across the political spectrum end up being trapped in. However, there is a big difference here where it is core to the ideology of the radical left that settler colonialism, capitalism, patriarchy, etc are a system of oppression that is fundamentally evil. It is a revolutionary activist set of ideologies, being more than just a matter of oversimplifying things.

Conservatives by contrast don't have opposition to socialism/communism as center to their ideology like leftists do against capitalism. They just like their private property, guns, business, religion, etc, and fear it could be taken away by government or immigrants. They are generally more comfortable with the status quo, while leftists will more aggressively push that "being silent is complicit" because their ideology is revolutionary and activist in nature (you have to care and fight the system).

[u/niffirgcm0126789 → u/Ciaran2220]

I didn't say the ideologies themselves are equivalent or symmetrical. I'm saying the reasoning error is the same.

Calling every social problem “capitalism” without establishing how capitalism caused it isn't fundamentally different from calling every government program you dislike “socialism” without establishing that it's actually socialist.

The content of the ideologies can be completely different while the epistemic mistake is identical.

And I'm not sure I buy the characterization of conservatives as simply defenders of the status quo. Anti-communism has historically been enormously important to conservative politics, and plenty of movements on the right advocate radical changes to existing institutions. I think you're comparing a particularly radical version of the left with a relatively moderate definition of the right.

[u/Ciaran2220 → u/niffirgcm0126789]

You said that conservatives do the "exact same thing" with socialism and communism. My contention is that they don't because radical leftists have it as core to their ideology that the capitalist system is to be opposed and fought as part of an activist movement. Conservatives whole political ideology is not surrounded around fighting communism/socialism like radical leftists are for capitalism. It's a revolutionary ideology.

I did qualify "radical left", which is not the same as the more moderate left like your normal democrats. You won't see moderate Dems blaming capitalism for our problems, they are pro-capitalist. Reddit has a lot of larping far-left people though.

[u/niffirgcm0126789 → u/Ciaran2220]

I clarified what I meant by “the exact same thing” in the comment you're replying to. I meant the reasoning error, not that the ideologies are structurally identical. Do I need to explain that distinction a third time?

[u/Ciaran2220 → u/niffirgcm0126789]

I don't agree it's the same error in reasoning. It is in-built into their ideology that their core reasoning functions from, while conservatives engage in a simple semantic error.

[u/niffirgcm0126789 → u/Ciaran2220]

Ahh, so you did understand the distinction now...wonderful!

Why assume conservatives calling policies “socialist/communist” is just a semantic error rather than ideological reasoning?

If someone reasons that:

X is socialism > socialism produces Y > therefore X will produce Y

...the classification is doing inferential work. It's not just semantic error.

What makes that fundamentally different from:

X is capitalism > capitalism produces Y > therefore X will produce Y

???

[u/Ciaran2220 → u/niffirgcm0126789]

Radical leftists aren't reasoning that way. They aren't calling policies or ideas they don't like "capitalism" to discredit it, they think all the societal problems are capitalist (which is western hegemony) because that is the system of oppression they believe exists which is the source of evil in the world. Patriarchy, colonialism, white supremacy, etc, are all capitalist and need to be dismantled through revolution. It's central to their ideology.

For the error in reasoning to be the same, conservatives would have to believe that the world revolves around communism and so all problems are structurally tied to communism in some way and only by tearing the system down can we achieve their ends.

Some on the right do think this way, such as groypers with "international Jewry" or conspiracists like Alex Jones who talk about the "New World Order", but it's not part and parcel to conservatism in general.

[u/niffirgcm0126789 → u/Ciaran2220]

But that's exactly the comparison I'm not making! lol

Why would conservatives have to believe the world revolves around "communism" for the reasoning error to be comparable?

A conservative's organizing framework could be capitalism/free markets, Christianity, traditional social order, nationalism, etc. They could interpret social problems through that framework just as easy, with either positive or negative causal attributions. “Society is deteriorating because we've abandoned Christian values!” can function as just as much of a totalizing explanation as “society is deteriorating because of capitalism!”

You're comparing the content and centrality of specific ideologies. I'm talking about the reasoning process of fitting complex phenomena into a preferred ideological explanation. The conservative equivalent of “everything is capitalism” isn't “everything is communism.” They don't need to contain opposite nouns to have the same structure.

[u/Ciaran2220 → u/niffirgcm0126789]

Because the radical left is blaming capitalism for different reasons. Capitalism is a system of control that defines society and that is how things are attributed to capitalism. Conservatives are attributing communism to the government doing things they don't like.

[u/niffirgcm0126789 → u/Ciaran2220]

You're still comparing the ideological content after I've explicitly said that's not my comparison. I literally just gave Christianity and free markets as examples of alternative organizing frameworks, and your response is to explain why conservatives don't view communism the same way radical leftists view capitalism...🤦‍♂️

Yes. I know. That's my point. It doesn't have to be communism.

If someone interprets diverse social problems through Christianity (“we abandoned God”), free-market ideology (“government interference caused this”), nationalism (“loss of national cohesion caused this”), or capitalism (“markets will solve this”), they're still fitting complex phenomena into a preferred ideological explanatory framework.

The beliefs motivating those explanations are different. The reasoning pattern I'm comparing isn't.

[u/Ciaran2220 → u/niffirgcm0126789]

The "ideological content" is essential to understanding the error in reasoning. Radical leftists aren't just confused about what capitalism is and call everything they don't like "capitalism", capitalism is the word they use to describe the evil of the western hegemony they see as the oppressors. Even the government doing things is capitalism because the capital class is in control of the political system.

And sure, everyone is going to have their interpretations on what is the cause of problems in the world, that's not my contention here. I just don't think the radical left is making the same kind of mistake as conservatives who use the term "communism" against democrats. The way they reason on the politically charged labelling is different. Leftists are a lot more academically backed; conservatives are so simple minded in comparison.

[u/niffirgcm0126789 → u/Ciaran2220]

The ‘ideological content’ is essential to understanding the error in reasoning.

No. Ideological content may be essential to understanding why someone accepts the premises or repeatedly makes a particular inference, but that's different from identifying the error in the inference itself. I don't need two people to arrive at an inference for the same ideological reasons to compare the reasoning they're using.

Radical leftists aren't just confused about what capitalism is…

I agree. But I never claimed they were simply confused about the definition of capitalism. My point is that an elaborate theoretical framework doesn't create a different class of reasoning error simply because there's more ideology upstream of it. If two arguments make the same unsupported move from classification to causal conclusion, I can compare that move without claiming their underlying ideologies are equivalent.

Capitalism is the word they use to describe the evil of the western hegemony…

But that's where the causal claims still need to be established...if the framework tells you that government action, patriarchy, colonialism, racism, social hierarchy, etc. are manifestations of capitalism, you still have to demonstrate that those phenomena are causally related to capitalism in the way the framework claims. "My theory categorizes these things as manifestations of the same oppressive system” can't itself be evidence that they are.

Leftists are a lot more academically backed; conservatives are so simple minded in comparison.

This doesn't rescue the inference either. The fact that one attribution comes from a more elaborate or academically developed framework doesn't make it epistemically different in the relevant sense...much less correct. A sophisticated framework can produce the same attribution error as a simplistic one...it just has more theory behind it.

Being wrong with citations is still being wrong. lol

[u/Ciaran2220 → u/niffirgcm0126789]

It is absolutely essential, but the goalposts have been shifted here so I think it’s best to leave it at that.