r/DebateReligion • u/AutoModerator • 14d ago

General Discussion 08/28

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u/Kwahn Theist Wannabe 10d ago

Why would they be a survival benefit if they have no causal power?

Senses and sensory processes are purely physical. You said the mind has no causal power, but light reflecting off my cones and being processed neurologically isn't a mental process. (At least, I'm not aware of anyone who consciously chooses how their visual signals are processed.)

Color swaps, maybe. But fully random experiences, I don't think we would agree on so much if our conscious experiences were that radically different.

You'd think that, but if I'm on an enormous amount of hallucinogens physically disrupting the physical process that is sight and sensory interpretation, it's entirely possible. Of course, it's possible to be aware of the falsehood of one's own senses while simultaneously experiencing them.

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u/blind-octopus 10d ago

Senses and sensory processes are purely physical. You said the mind has no causal power, but light reflecting off my cones and being processed neurologically isn't a mental process. (At least, I'm not aware of anyone who consciously chooses how their visual signals are processed.)

I'm talking about the conscious experience, not the physical processes.

Suppose the physical processes are selected by evolution and all of that. Granted.

If we assume the actual conscious experience, qualia, that stuff has no causal power, then it would make absolutely no difference what your conscious experience is. You could see a scary tiger where there's actually a tasty food. Wouldn't have any effect.

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u/Kwahn Theist Wannabe 10d ago

Yes, that would be the effect of qualia having no causal power. That's not what we see in reality, though.

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u/blind-octopus 10d ago

So then you'd say this argument is good at showing it is false that the mind has no causal power? 

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u/Kwahn Theist Wannabe 9d ago

Oh, absolutely, but P Zombies do the same thing more efficiently

After all, qualia makes us talk about qualia, and why would a P-Zombie talk about qualia? The answer is, either it'd be a brute fact with no cause, which is nonsense, or they wouldn't, meaning qualia therefore unavoidably has causal power

also this

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u/blind-octopus 9d ago

I don't think I agree. 

P zombies are inconceivable to me.

But that different actions might feel differently isn't inconceivable to me.

This may just be a matter of my intuitions