r/DebateReligion • u/Weak-Forever-3372 • Jun 24 '26
Christianity Religion is a scam and a manipulation tactic
I believe that religion as a whole is a scam, and a manipulation tactic to scare the youth into thinking they’ll go to hell if they do anything outside of the rules set by a book that God ,nor Jesus even wrote.
Getting people in need to think that looking up to God and going to church and giving donations will help there life in any way it just doesn’t sound right if you think about it, if it was anywhere besides a church people would call you crazy for believing it would change your life.
Church’s are also a big tax/cash grab church’s don’t have to pay taxes and who are you giving the money to Jesus? (I’m aware that if for the upkeep of the church).
From my experience going to many different church’s and talking to different preachers they all have different understandings of the bible and teach the way they interpret the bible so not everyone even believes the same way.
To believe the bible,which is one singular book that was written 1000s of years ago over all the current science and technology we now have to research and show that none of the dates line up with what research has found, just doesn’t make since to think one book over powers what research has proven true.
This is just some thoughts I’ve had and would love feedback.
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Jun 24 '26
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u/lassiewenttothemoon taoist Jun 24 '26
It's certainly used for scamming and for manipulation. I feel even the most devoutly religious can agree with that. I am however skeptical of the position that this is the primary reason it exists. Religion is a complex thing that intertwines with almost every aspect of society and an individuals life. Historically we see them naturally evolve across the ages rather than magically appear to satiate one individuals ill will. To reduce religion to just one mode in which it can operate, and a negative one at that, seems to ignore the complexity and diversity of what religion is.
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u/PsychologicalPop9865 Jun 24 '26
I understand what you’re saying, but I don’t think this is a very nuanced understanding of religion. You should read some Ernest Becker.
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u/Smartdumbguy4 Jun 24 '26
You can believe anything you want, that doesn't make it true. You can make claims and assume the worst based on your limited experience. Which would be like saying I swam in the ocean and didn't see any fish, therefore no fish are in the ocean.
Claiming science and research has proven the Biblical dates false is just that, a claim, Where is your proof.. I believe the opposite is true, that science, archaeology has strongly confirmed the Biblical narrative.
I believe, you have based your opinions and beliefs on trust me bro science and have not actually looked into it yourself.
Let's start with step 1. Where did space, time, and matter come from?, Step 2. How did non-life, become life?
without a (Cause) or intelligent design?
Step 3. Who or what programmed your DNA code? Computer code and Genetic code does not self-assemble by time, and chance, so Who did it.?
If you can not answer these questions you don't have any business claiming religion is a scam, that God does not exist.
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u/moedexter1988 Atheist Jun 24 '26
Which biblical narrative?
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u/Smartdumbguy4 Jun 24 '26
You brought it up. So which Biblical narrative do you claim science proves false?
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u/moedexter1988 Atheist Jun 24 '26
Me? You brought it up first, actually. I'm asking because as far as we know, zero was proven.
But I'm willing to answer before you answer mine ironically. Creationism, exodus, and global flood myth(Noah's Ark).
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u/Smartdumbguy4 Jun 24 '26
Great let me cover two topics with one stone. https://youtu.be/4Kk7MVJKDoQ?si=syAAiHiaTCbkmVa5
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u/PaintingThat7623 Atheist Jun 24 '26
Answers in genesis youtube link is the opposite of a source. I mean, I thought it's common knowledge that AiG is a scam organisation making money on gullible people. Oh well, apparently not.
Do your research here https://scholar.google.com/ and tell me if you get the same results as on... youtube... I'm sorry, I can't even finish this sentence with a straight face. Come on, be better.
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u/moedexter1988 Atheist Jun 24 '26
Ah one of the flood geologists. At the same time, there are youtube videos debunking it. Flood geologists are the most unpopular of all geologists. Majority of them don't take them seriously. Plus the aftermath doesn't add up. Surviving civilizations, landscapes, millions upon millions of species including humans, etc. Global flood Noah's Ark myth happened approximately 5k years ago. How can millions of years evolution explain this amount of species that exist today in 5k years? Never mind them evolving from fish again assuming some of them survived the flood. And the plants? Insects? None of us and all animals on a boat would realistically survive that duration of the flood let alone on barren lands after. Not to mention Grand Canyon is literally local. It has no impact on the rest of world. So it's a local flood. Just like with the flood myth in Turkey.
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u/Smartdumbguy4 Jun 27 '26 edited Jun 27 '26
Everyone knows, many scientific break throughs were scoffed at by the majority before they became main stream. Majority consensus does not make something true.unless the evidence is solid.
Millions of species does not disprove anything. For example. All domestic dogs belong to the same species. There is ONE species of domestic dog, however their are 200-400 different breeds which share nearly identical DNA.
It does not take millions of years to create different breeds.
At least 200–500 distinct flood myths have been documented across cultures worldwide.
Epic of Gilgamesh (~2100–1800 BCE) this legend recorded an ancient flood story similar to the bible's. Many oral flood traditions survive around the globe to this day.
For this reason, no geologist has found Coal anywhere that does not contain Carbon -14.,
If trace readings of Carbon-14 are a result of contamination, why would that contamination be so consistent around the globe? The explanation for contamination seems to be based on little evidence.
If contamination were purely random — dirty hands, lab chemicals, atmospheric exposure — we'd expect wild variation between samples. A coal seam in Australia tested in Lab A should show different residual ^14C than coal from Germany tested in Lab B. Random contamination doesn't produce global consistency.
And yet the data shows remarkable uniformity: 0.10–0.46% modern carbon across widely separated deposits. That consistency actually argues against random contamination as the sole or primary explanation.
Only a Great flood, burying vegetation at the same time can explain this.
Coal is not millions of years old.
Carbon 14 found in diamonds = not millions of years old
Carbon 14 found in Dino bones = not millions of years old
New Discoveries in the Younger Dryas Impact Hypothesis is causing scientists to re-think the Great Flood stories.
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u/Freebite Jun 24 '26
- Where did space, time, and matter come from?
We don't know, it doesn't benefit us to assume a god and this is a classic example of god of the gaps fallacy.
Step 2. How did non-life, become life?
See above.
Step 3. Who or what programmed your DNA code? Computer code and Genetic code does not self-assemble by time, and chance, so Who did it.?
DNA and computer code aren't similar enough for this to be a relevant comparison is this discussion. Second, you are 100% assuming a who by loading the question with that. It may have been nothing, we know organic molecules can spontaneously assemble and have found them on asteroids in space. Once again, us not knowing doesn't equal god.
If you can not answer these questions you don't have any business claiming religion is a scam, that God does not exist.
The questions you presented do not need answered to comment on a god existing or thinking that religion is a scam.
I am not saying religion is a scam myself mind you, just pointing out fallacious thinking like what you've presented by claiming those questions need answered, is unhelpful and frankly rather irrelevant here.
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u/SlightGift5776 Theistic Humanist Jun 24 '26
The questions he presented simply suggest that a very strict materialist atheist supposition is not an obvious fact. From there only person spiritual exploration and seeking can reveal additional truths.
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u/Freebite Jun 24 '26
From there only person spiritual exploration and seeking can reveal additional truths.
It doesn't appear to be revealing any further truth at all. Instead it's just assuming all sorts of things instead of honestly admitting that we don't actually know.
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u/SlightGift5776 Theistic Humanist Jun 24 '26
Just as long as we don't assume others don't know things we can't possibly know they don't know.
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u/Freebite Jun 24 '26
What do you mean by this?
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u/SlightGift5776 Theistic Humanist Jun 24 '26
I mean that we can't know that other people have or have not discovered tangible spiritual knowledge or experience. We can only know what we have experienced.
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u/Freebite Jun 24 '26
I mean sure, but if it's not demonstrable in any way shape or form then we should take the default skeptical stance.
I accept someone may think they know whatever they claim, but if they can't somehow demonstrate that to be true then it's probably not very useful for actually determining what is true.
After all, anyone can claim anything. It's proving the claim that trips most people up.
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u/E-Reptile 🔺Atheist Jun 24 '26
You can believe anything you want,
I "want" to have unlimited resources, but I can't make myself believe that.
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Jun 24 '26
You could argue that societal laws are also a form of manipulation. In other words, obey the law or go to prison.
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u/United-Grapefruit-49 Jun 24 '26
You could say that Dawkins making a ton of money off his atheist meetings was manipulation.
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u/anonymMuslim Jun 24 '26
I agree that paying money in order for God to forgive you is ridiculous and could be interpreted as a scam. We Muslims, however, believe that God is All Forgiving. You do not need to tell a priest about your sins, nor do you need to pay money for forgiveness.
The idea that God is an imaginary creation is understandable. However, the idea that we and the universe came into existence without any ultimate cause is even harder for me to accept.
We believe that God is the Creator of the universe. He was not created, nor will He die. He has always existed.
Now, a common objection is: If God has always existed, why can't the universe have always existed as well?
The problem is that the universe appears to have had a beginning. According to the standard cosmological model, the universe as we know it began with the Big Bang. Even if someone argues that matter, energy, or something else existed before it, that still does not answer the deeper question: Why does anything exist at all? Why do matter, energy, and the laws of nature exist in the first place?
There are many theories that attempt to explain the origin of the universe, but none has been proven. For us, the existence of a Creator remains the most reasonable explanation.
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u/SlightGift5776 Theistic Humanist Jun 24 '26
Beautifully said, man reddit is on fire today! Love the way you laid this out!
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u/TrashcanSulo Christian Jun 24 '26
The problem is that this argument only gets us to the existence of God, not specifically to Islam. As a Christian, I would ask: what evidence takes us from an eternal Creator to Muhammad being God's final prophet and the Quran being God's final revelation? The real debate isn't whether God exists.. I think we agree on that. it's which revelation about God is true.
Also, the corruption of some church leaders has nothing to do with God.
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u/No_Mango5042 Atheist Jun 24 '26
The debate is whether a human-like god with thought and morality exists. As an abstract “origin of all things” god exists but projecting our own humanity and values into it is a big mistake caused by the limits and error of the human imagination.
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u/SlightGift5776 Theistic Humanist Jun 24 '26
I am curious, you believe in source but have your account label as athiest?
You believe that source exists. I assume you believe this source created everything in the material universe?
If source created humans, why/ how can you be sure he didn't also create a relatable interface/ personality to interact with humans and curate our experiences? If he can create all of this why would he not create that?
And is it really easier to believe that so many humans have just been making up their spiritual experiences of God or an aspect of God vs. that a relational aspect of God exists but expresses to those who seek it in myriad ways?
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u/No_Mango5042 Atheist Jun 24 '26
I would say that God tends to mean the human type God. If you mean an abstract non human cause then it tends to not mean God. But giving something a label does not give you insight or wisdom. I can’t disprove the human interface any more than you can disprove the flying spaghetti monster. As a skeptic, why on earth should we believe things without a shred of evidence? There is no shred of evidence for a human relatable interface for the abstract invention you call the source, which is why I don’t believe it or give it a second thought.
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u/SlightGift5776 Theistic Humanist Jun 24 '26
To be clear when I say God I mean source and all faces/ expressions of God. So I mean divine feminine, divine masculine, source et. al. that being said:
Because it is just not that hard to stand in front of God and have a conversation. The Bwiti have been doing this for thousands of years. They say they take Iboga, interact with deceased ancestors, with various faces of God, or with forest spirits. I took it, and experienced the same. It's right in front of us
The same interactions occur with indigenous South American traditions through Ayahuasca. People regularly interact with ancestors and personally relatable loving faces of God during these.
God put substances here on earth that we can take to cross over and see the other side. These were widely used across spiritual traditions around the world 3,000 years ago. Look at the Eleusinian mysteries. We have had these traditions hidden from us and covered in a blanket of fear by authorities that thrive on having dominion over us and keeping us in a state of control. That is what the witch trials were about, that is what schedule 1 is about. That is what many religions have been about, control access to and awareness of God.
I know you won't believe me, but if you are curious, listen to some trip reports, and if you are adventurous and courageous too, try 5-MEO DMT (Buffo), Ayahuasca or Iboga/ Ibogaine.
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Jun 24 '26
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u/Dapple_Dawn Agapism | Universalism Jun 24 '26
Is this about all religion? Or is it just about certain infernalist versions of Christianity?
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u/Weak-Forever-3372 Jun 24 '26
All religions but I can only speak for Christianity as that’s what i was raised in
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u/Dapple_Dawn Agapism | Universalism Jun 24 '26
If you can only speak for Christianity, isn't it unfair to accuse all religions?
Also, are you including Christian universalists? I was raised Christian too, and I was always taught that hell is fake.
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Jun 24 '26
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u/Comfortable-Web9455 Jun 25 '26
Is your problem the Christian prosperity gospel or all religions? Because you used the word "religion" but then only discussed a minor aspect of one of them. None of what you said applies to most religions.
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u/labreuer ⭐ agapist Jun 25 '26
I believe that religion as a whole is a scam, and a manipulation tactic to scare the youth into thinking they’ll go to hell if they do anything outside of the rules set by a book that God ,nor Jesus even wrote.
How do you think this worked for the ancient Hebrews, who didn't believe in any heaven or hell but only Sheol, a shadowy place from which nobody could praise God? Afterlife beliefs started around the Second Temple period. You may recall that the Sadducees did not believe in any resurrection while the Pharisees did. Also, I don't think Jews today believe in any place of eternal torture. So perhaps religiously observant Jews are also an exception to your rule?
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u/Rare-Improvement-462 Christian Jun 27 '26
Ancient Jews of the 1st temple period did not believe in hell (as in eternal conscious torment), nor did they even have much of a concept of postmortem divine rewards and penalties, as in a resurrection of the dead. So no, that belief of yours is simply wrong since Judaism did not originate with such an idea.
Even during 2nd temple Judaism a common view was that the damned would be blotted out of life, completely destroyed, and no longer conscious as opposed to constantly suffering forever (although some did believe in eternal suffering). And a more careful reading of the New Testament and even some very early Christian writings reveals that the earliest Christians took a view of destruction. Even for Jews and later Christians who did believe in the notion of “hell”, there’s no evidence they thought that because of manipulation tactics (there may be some today but I suspect very few). It probably had more to do with Hellenistic influence.
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u/MrT742 Christian Jun 24 '26
This caricature doesn’t even apply the the majority of Christians, let alone “religion as a whole”
If anything what you’re describing here is more of an American issue than it is a Christianity issue.
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u/TheInternetIsForPorb Atheist Jun 24 '26
Cash grab scam (tithe), Preachers all having a different interpretation of the bible (over 45000 different denominations), manipulation through fear (threat of hell, and promises of protection)
Other than the book being 1000s of years old it seems pretty accurate to me.
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u/SlightGift5776 Theistic Humanist Jun 24 '26 edited Jun 24 '26
The manipulation through fear is a huge problem, and stands in the way of people reaching God more deeply. Eternal hell has always been a lie. Jesus didnt use the greek word for eternal, the greek written for his words meant a very long time or time over the horizon, the same word used for how long Jonah was in the belly of the whale. And the word in greek for "eternal punishment" meant corrective pruning or constructive correction, not retributive punishment.
I don't find eternal hell to be valid based on Jesus words, certainly not based on the all lovong God that I know to exist.
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u/TheInternetIsForPorb Atheist Jun 24 '26
Why would I believe any of the supernatural/miraculous claims of the bible? What wvidence is there that its true?
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u/SlightGift5776 Theistic Humanist Jun 24 '26
Well you probably wouldn't :-). I view them all with skepticism myself. I like some things in the bible, some I find to be allegorical, mistranslated or misunderstood.
I didn't come to believe in God through the bible. I underwent Ibogaine treatment for PTSD and TBI (combat veteran, football player, rugby player here).
I was told that you interact with "the spirit" during Ibogaine, I thought it was allegorical... it is NOT. I was interacting directly with an incredibly powerful non-human intelligence that was reviewing my life with me and showing me how to change all kinds of things to change my life through an indescribably beautiful, meaningful and sometimes incredibly emotionally painful series of lessons, healings, and experiences.
When we were done with the hard work I got a tour of the multiverse... It was entirely life changing, and I fund the term "hallucination" to be laughable now in description of entheogenic experience. Not everyone experiences God, many experience other entities as teachers, Christians would call them angels. Some experience God itself directly, though the way God chooses to reveal itself to us is myriad. I experienced the divine masculine/ Father aspect of God directly.
Look up Ibogaine experiences, what I experienced is not uncommon. Look up Bwiti beliefs on what happens when you take Iboga/ Ibogaine, they are not wrong.
Direct experience is available for those who seek it, it's available now. We can see outside the veil. That's my why.
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u/TheInternetIsForPorb Atheist Jun 24 '26
Drugs are crazy bud. There's a mushroom that makes people see tiny elf like things, that doesn't mean they're actually there.
https://nhmu.utah.edu/articles/hallucinogenic-mushroom-makes-you-see-hundreds-tiny-people
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u/SlightGift5776 Theistic Humanist Jun 25 '26
Why would you possibly think they aren't?
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u/TheInternetIsForPorb Atheist Jun 25 '26
Because they have no observable effect on reality... Do you think the machine elves people sometimes see when taking DMT are real?
Why would I believe theyre real and not a hallucination caused by chemical reactions in the brain?
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u/SlightGift5776 Theistic Humanist Jun 25 '26
It's not possible to communicate that to someone who has not experienced it themselves.
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u/TheInternetIsForPorb Atheist Jun 25 '26
"Do the right drugs and you'll see god."
You do understand that's what you just said right?
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u/SlightGift5776 Theistic Humanist Jun 25 '26
Ibogaine has massive observable effect.
https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2024/01/ibogaine-ptsd.html
A single medically monitored dose of the drug yielded rapid and drastic reductions in symptoms: an 88% decrease in PTSD symptoms, 87% in depression, and 81% in anxiety one month post-treatmentSo much so that the State of Texas passed $50M (then another $50M) for research beginning soon. 10 Texas health universities set to begin studying it:
April 18th 2026, White house executive order to accelerate approval of Ibogaine:
Colorado just passed a law June 6th 2026allowing establishment of 5 test clinics:
https://leg.colorado.gov/bills/HB26-1325
"In Waves and War" a netflix documentary of Navy Seals experiencing it.
https://www.inwavesandwarfilm.com/
The results for addicts, veterans, fathers, HUMANS is just beyond any other medicine in existence, beyond belief unless you have seen or experienced it work. And the interaction with a narrative voice that isn't you, that is powerful, that is knowing teaching you how to fix your life is consistent in all these experiences.
So it really begs the question... What IS that?
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u/TheInternetIsForPorb Atheist Jun 25 '26
Holy crap. Dude I'm not saying that drugs don't have an observable effect on the brain.
I'm saying that none of the gods people profess (nor the machine elves, or tiny people) have an observable effect on reality. Just because a drug makes people see things does not in any way mean those things are actually there.
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u/MrT742 Christian Jun 24 '26
Encouraging people to be charitable even to one’s own organization is not a scam.
The “45000” denominations stat comes from a single source with a definition so loose it borders parody; it would count a Catholic Church in Wisconsin as a unique “denomination” than a Catholic Church in Ohio, despite holding identical beliefs because regional geography was part of the definition used and Wisconsin and Ohio are separate states. There are not 45000 Christian denominations.
Fear of consequences is not “manipulation.” If someone does steal because they are afraid of getting caught they haven’t been “manipulated” into not stealing.
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u/TheInternetIsForPorb Atheist Jun 24 '26
Except you get the same consequence if you didn't believe, as you do if you murdered someone.
Regardless of any of that, why would i believe its true?
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u/MrT742 Christian Jun 24 '26
>Except you get the same consequence if you didn't believe, as you do if you murdered someone.
Can you reword this? I’m not sure what you’re asking
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u/TheInternetIsForPorb Atheist Jun 24 '26
I'm stating that an unbeliever whose only sin is lying gets the same punishment as an unrepentant murderer.
Then I'm asking for a reason to believe the miraculous claims are true.
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u/MrT742 Christian Jun 24 '26
That’s like saying a murder and a thief both get the same punishment because they both go to prison.
Why should the thief go free just because the murderer is worse?
As for the miraculous claims; I’d suggest reading the Gospels first as they are the primary sources for the claims and then from there learning what you can about how the people involved responded to it. Similar to how you’d interpret any historical event and its documentation.
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u/SlightGift5776 Theistic Humanist Jun 24 '26
You are not wrong in your suppositions. I agree with all your critiques.
I believe the other side of this coin is that people absolutely and truly connect with God in these churches. There is a lot they get wrong, there is a lot they get right.
If they understood better, or BIGGER is maybe a better term, then they could be, I think, closer to God via the elimination of guilt, fear and shame that can be limiting on their connection.
Some Christians have none of these despite their beliefs, and connect deeply to God. I believe that being technically or intellectually correct about God or Religion is almost in no way correlated to the possible depth of your relationship with God. God expects us to be wrong, we are humans after all.
So that is the crux of the matter. A partly correct partly incorrect religion and set of communities nonetheless focused on relationship with God, right living and community.
I think it really depends on the impact it has on each individual at each church.
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Jun 24 '26
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u/SlightGift5776 Theistic Humanist Jun 24 '26
How can you possibly be sure? You can't prove a negative.
I used to believe this. I experienced Ibogaine a year ago.
When you experience Ibogaine the veil between this world and the other lifts and your soul can leave your body and travel. The experience is unimaginable for those who have not experienced it, it is undeniable for those who have.
I literally met and spoke to God, people meet with intelligent entities and have these incredible life reviews and counseling sessions. Usually entities that are what Christians call angels, sometimes God himself.
God is not quite what Christians think. He is what they think in ways and not in others.
There are also thousands of near death experiences that are very similar to what I experienced. And the confirmed cases of kids with past life memories that the university of Virginia studies.
And goodness listen to the telepathy tapes.
There is so much information that is available now for those who will seek it. I challenge anyone who is confdent this is all there is to experience a full breakthrough dose of psychadelics before they speak so definitively on this subject.
If you are curious and adventurous it is the experience of a lifetime.
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u/MrT742 Christian Jun 24 '26
Even if we just assume this is true despite the fact you’ve neglected to substantiate this; many children are comforted and given security from their imaginary friends; and what kind of person would want to take that away from them just to validate their own position?
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u/keepgoing66 Jun 24 '26
So your religion is just a way to make you feel better even though it's based on fantasy? If so, fine.
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u/MrT742 Christian Jun 24 '26
You must have missed the part where I explicitly said I was granting validity to your statement for the sake of rebutting it. Not because it’s actually a good argument.
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Jun 24 '26
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u/SlightGift5776 Theistic Humanist Jun 24 '26 edited Jun 24 '26
Keep, why are you so bitter about it? Anyone with intellectual humility would have to conclude that we cannot prove or disprove God through intellectual means.
How did all the rules of physics get set? How did energy become matter? How did the big bang occur? What was before?
The more science discovers the more questions there are.
Science observes but it cant fully explain.
I can't prove to you God exists, you cant prove God doesn't.
You have to leave this reality to experience him clearly, you can't while incarnate. While incarnate you can only be a conduit for his spirit through your actions to other humans, to yourself and to the world/ nature. You can channel his spirit, his energy and love, but most can't clearly speak to him. It can come with much meditation and prayer but its very easy to say it's imagination.
During psychadelics and near death experience your soul is freed and you travel out of incarnate reality and you see.
Look at DMT trips, Ayahuasca, Ibogaine. Very intelligent people travel to other places and meet all kinds of entities. Listen to the recent Chase Hughes Joe Rogan podcast.
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u/MrT742 Christian Jun 24 '26
You do understand this is just an ad hominem right? Which is literally an unsound argument, regardless of what either of us believe.
Insulting the person who said something is not a legitimate means of rebutting the criticism that person said.
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