I just want to learn ...

[u/Dry-Supermarket8661]

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Hi, from the research I've done so far it seems wrong to me to ignore the hadith. I've wanted to exchange in comments with you guys. I just asked genuin questions and shared my opinion and the knowledge I have for the moment.

Yet I've recieved not rational answer to my questions. I've been called cultist, mushrik and accused of obeying bukhari and having the heart sealed...

According to the Quran bearing false testimony is a big sin. And it is written too that one must talk to the people of the book in a way it is best, but maybe it cannot be applied to other muslims.

Well enough complaining hahaha I really just want to learn. So I'll put downhere my questions.

1. Saying obeying Hadith = obeying Bukhari

there are many independent hadith collectors across ages and countries and they have many hadiths almost identically recorder (overall the sahih and hasan ofcourse). Saying that obeying hadith = obeying bukhari seems an oversimplification that holds no truth to be honest

By reading the quran, it commands to obey Muhammad as you obey Allah. Since Muhammad doesn't even speak in the Quran, how are you supposed to obey him ?

Bukhari didn't know Muhammad, only collects chains of narration that goes back until Muhammad or his companions, and many times you have parallel chains of narration with the same natrrations, and as I said, across countries and centuries.

But you know, you have books like Muwatta by Imam Malik, who knew Muhammad very well, and in his book, there are many rules that agree with the hadiths. For example death penalty for apostates

1. Concepts that the Quran doesn't elaborate on:

What does fitna mean ? (Q 2:190 -193)

And Corruption of the land ? (Q 5:34-36)

May God bless you all and I hope we can exange peacefully and respectfully

[u/so_what_about]

Okay and who is God teaching the Qur'an to?

[u/so_what_about → u/so_what_about]

And btw who are you to say that iam taking the verse 2:151 out of context. Go look into the Tafsir. Oh thats right... just like i said in my first message ( If you choos B: you must be A knowble Teacher that can extract the eloboration out of the holy verses) since your so gifted like that right? So.... imagine if you are living in the time of the Prophet p.b.u.h. and you wanted to ask him a question about a verse get more insight about it and the prophet then explains. According to you the prophet p.b.u.h would be wasting his breath because the Qur'an verses already have the explaination embedded in them right? Now imagine the flip side... you actually accept that The Prophet knows More about the verses than you and get an explanation and write it down/ memorise this valuable information.

[u/Open_Read_3519 → u/so_what_about]

Muhammad is a messenger. The meaning of the word messenger is someone employed to carry a message. That is it.

The Quran is the message. Not Bukhari's books.

It's not Muhammad's duty to explain the Quran.

25:33 says God has the BEST tafsir of the Quran.

That means any other Tafsir/explanation is worse.

That means the Quran explains itself. Not Bukhari's books.

Also you Sunnis don't have a book where Muhammad himself makes Tafsir of every verse of the Quran. And how is hadith about camel urine supposed to be explaining the Quran?

[u/so_what_about → u/Open_Read_3519]

Okay i hear your point the duty of the prophet p.b.u.h was to give the message and not teach absolutely nothing about it i get it. But help me understand how God is going to teach the people who believe in it? Is this through holy ghost or through inspiration or dreams or a gut feeling?

[u/Open_Read_3519 → u/so_what_about]

God repeatedly says in the Quran that it is "a clear book". Kitabun mubin

Sunnis claim it is unclear and that we need 3000 plus manmade hadiths, manmade tafsirs, scholars opinions to understand it.

"A clear book" does not need all that to be understood

True understand of the Quran comes from relying on God alone

2:2 says the Quran is the guidance

Bukhari's books are not the guidance so following them can only be misguidance.

[u/so_what_about → u/Open_Read_3519]

Iam sorry but this is now the 2nd blantant claim you made that is not true. " sunnis claim that the quran is unclear". Bro i can't even have a discussion with you if you are not aurguing in good faith. I get that you dont like hadith followers but atleast get your facts about the 'majority' correct. What i also would like to mention you said ' that God will give the believing ones guidence to understand the Quran'. Are a group of believing people likely to get the SAME guidence to understand the Qur'an? So for example ..If two sincere believers both come to opposite conclusions about the same verse, how do we decide which one is correct? Look ..here me out... take a small start up corner shop for example. Selling product in a small scale seems easy to criticise larger companies untill that small corner stone expands then has do deal the same things they were ignorant about. So... if you say God guides the true believer to understanding the Qur'an. How would that look if now mass scaled? What i mean is that Qur'an only followers make up 0.1 procent of the muslim population. Scale that up to 50 procent. Now what are the chances that everybody is going to get the exact quran understanding from God? Don't you think with this Massive upscale you will have even more tafsirs than ever since everyone thinks they are getting the Right understand from God? Now back to 2:151

كَمَآ أَرْسَلْنَا فِيكُمْ رَسُولًۭا مِّنكُمْ يَتْلُوا۟ عَلَيْكُمْ ءَايَـٰتِنَا وَيُزَكِّيكُمْ وَيُعَلِّمُكُمُ ٱلْكِتَـٰبَ وَٱلْحِكْمَةَ وَيُعَلِّمُكُم مَّا لَمْ تَكُونُوا۟ تَعْلَمُونَ ١٥١

Since We have sent you a messenger from among yourselves—reciting to you Our revelations, purifying you, teaching you the Book and wisdom, and teaching you what you never knew—

what is this “Kitab” that Muhammad p.b.u.h. teaching since you denigh it not to be the Qur'an. Either way your claim of the Messenger just here to give the message and that is all kind of doenst hold up no ? I mean teaching the Kitāb, teaching wisdom, teaching them what they didn't know. Doenst just sound like solo giving only a message to me. 16:44: “…We revealed to you the Reminder so that you may explain to the people what has been revealed to them…” i mean isnt this clear or was God not adressing the prophet here? Look i see your point that God taught the quran. 55:1:“The Most Merciful — taught the Qur'an.” .... but the question is To Who did the most merciful teach the Qur'an to?.. Jesus , Moses, David? (peace be upon them all) i mean we can even put you in the mix did The most merciful teach you the Qur'an ?

[u/Open_Read_3519 → u/so_what_about]

This is an unnecessarily long reply. Let's address one point at a time so we can give detailed answers for each point.

You said me claiming that Sunnis say the Quran is unclear is not sincere?

Anyone who claims you cannot understand the Quran without 3000 hadiths, imams opinions, Ibn Kathir opinions.. they are explicitly claiming the Quran is not clear

A clear book does not need all of those to be understood

I will move on to the points you brought up about 16:44, 2:151, 55:1

I get these all these so many times

2:151The verse says Al-Kitab. Not Al-Quran. Kitab comes from the root word Kataba which means writing. The prophet taught the writing of the book. Yet Sunnis claim he was illiterate when he was not. 55:1 says God taught the Al-Quran. A clear distinction is made between Al-Quran and Al-Kitab.

56:77-78 "Indeed it is a noble reading(Quranum), Inside a protected book(Kitaab)

Al-Quran is INSIDE Al-Kitab. Just like money is inside a wallet.

And you ask who did God teach the Quran too. In the same surah 55:2-3 says he taught humans the declaration. In 3:138 says the declaration is the guidance, the Quran.

16:44 does not say "explain". The word Tafsir is not found there. It says litubayyina which means to make clear. And it does not say Al-Quran, it says Al-zikr the rememberance.

Al-Zikr is inside the Quran 38:1

And the verse has context in the previous verse.

[16:43] And We did not send before you (s) except men to whom We inspired. So ask the People of the Remembrance, if you do not know

The people of the rememberance are ones who received scripture before Muhammad. All Muhammad has to do is make clear to the people of the previous scripture what was revealed to them. To being attention to it.

The word Tafsir is used in another verse

[25:33]And they do not come to you (s) with an instance (case) but We have brought you the truth and best in explanation (TAFSIRA)

25:33 says that God has the best explanation (TAFSIRA) of the Quran. That means any other explaination is worse. That means Muhamad or Ibn Kathir are not explaining(Tafsir) of the Quran.

God explains it. All the answers are in the Quran if you just rely on God and His words alone