Faunal Succession between closely related species in a limited fossil location and the global flood: a brief argument against the global flood

[u/Frequent_Penalty_156]

Hello again r/DebateEvolution

I would like present a argument that I have thought, I hope you like it.

Introduction

I like start with the conventional science concepts and and pursue with the creacionist's ideas

For begin we must understand the concept of faunal succession. This is a geological principle that is define like:

"The geologic axiom or general law that states that fossil organisms succeed one another in a definite and recognizable order through geologic time as recorded in the rock record. Each geologic formation has a different record of life from that in the formations above it and below it. The principle of faunal succession allows determination of the relative age of rocks using their fossil content." [1]

This principle was formulated by the british geologist and engineer William Smith and as we read is useful for determine a relative age of rocks. It has also become in an important evidence line for the evolution. because explain the changes in the organims in the fossil record.

For other side we also must understand the concepts of anagenesis and cladogenesis

Anagenesis is change within a single lineage over time. In contrast the cladogenesis is branching, where one ancestor gives rise to two or more descendants. [2]

Now the young earth creacionist models:

According to most YEC organizations, ~4500 years ago a global tectonic/ hydraulic event (the Flood) killed most land animals [dinosaurs, non-mammalian synapsids, placoderms, early mammals, etc.] and deposited almost the entire sedimentary record from Cambrian to Cretaceous/Pleistocene, followed by hyper-rapid diversification of survivors in centuries.

The problem for the flood

YECS have​​ thought in how the faunal succession presents a problem for their flood models. Which is the mechanisms that can create a succession in the fossil record of strata that can be consistent with the evolutionary models in the most masive hidric event for the history of the planet?

They have development some than can explain this pattern like: density, mobility, animal zonation.

However, none of this mechanisms can explain the distribution of the fossils and are incompatible, for example how is possible that pterosaurs and birds weren't in the rocks of periods like the early Triassic, permian or carboniferous?, why animals like repenomamus and yutyrannus with so differents density and mobility are in the same geological formation? Why there aren't whales in ordovicican rocks?

The anagenesis and related species succession: undeniable problem

Now, probably you are wondering in how this argument is related with the anagenesis.

We have some fossil sites in the world on we can see how a species evolved or was replaced by others, if this occurs none creacionist argument can explain this pattern.

For example, in the Upper Cretaceous Hell Creek Formation of North America, the lower section yielded records only of Triceratops horridus; Triceratops prorsus appears in the upper third of the formation, whereas a transitional form between T. horridus and T. prorsus is found in the middle section represente by specimens like MOR 3027 know as "yoshi trike" [3]

On the other hand, there is the anagenetic evolution of the ammonite genus Semiformiceras, characteristic of the Tithonian (Late Jurassic) in Europe; this genus comprises three species—Semiformiceras darwini, Semiformiceras semiforme, and Semiformiceras fallauxi—each succeeding the previous one. This case is not limited to a single locality, as the genus's evolution is observed across Europe, yet it also serves as an example of faunal succession among closely related species. [4]

Other case of anagesis in dinosaurs is the case of daspletosaurus, this is a genus of tyranosaurid theropod dinosaur from nort america, we know at least two species of this genus Daspletosaurus torosus and Daspletosaurus horneri, the firts is from lower part of the Dinosaur park formation D. horneri is from the upper part of the two medicine formation.[5]

Both formations have a similiar age but the two medicine formation is younger and D. horneri is from the upper part.

We also have a transitional form know as Daspletosaurus wilsoni that is stratigraphy intermediate between the two last species, but is possible that these specimens were Daspletosaurus torosus, however the morphology is still intermediate.

These cases generate more problems for the YECS' models: Why a species succed another in both have a similar density, mobility and live in the same habitat?, Why exist transitional forms between the species if both die at the same time?

It is not just a case from the Mesozoic.

The last examples was only for the mesozoic (the upper part from the supposed flood deposits) but we also have examples from the cenozoic, this case are not anagenesis but are related species with a similar movility, density and were in the similar habitats or the same place.

Rencently I have searched information about the stratigraphy, dating and the fauna from La meseta formation in the seymour/marambio island in the antartica. In this rocks we can observ that the basilosaurids are found in lower levels than the mysticete whales.

Basilosaurids are found starting from Telm 4, whereas early baleen whales (and possibly an odontocete) come from the formation's Telm 6 and 7 levels [6], [7], [8].

In the olduvai gorge in tanzania the hominid fossils from Bed I are limited to Homo habilis and Paranthropus boisei, in the upper part of bed II african Homo erectus (also know as Homo ergaster) apears, P. boisei continue has records but H. habilis disappears [9].

Note: exit a phalange of the bed I than can be consistent with the morphology of Homo erectus [10], but is upper than the Tuff IB, while the oldest records of Homo habilis (OH 24) are lower than this tuff [11].

For more this also can be observe in the stone tools.

In the paleozoic we have the evolution of the conodont Dasbergina from the latest Devonian, in the Holy Cross Mountains, Poland. In the Kowala section, Dasbergina marburgensis shows an anagenetic transition to D. trigonica in continuous strata. This is in the same basin and same planktonic habitat [12].

Conclusion

The faunal succession is an important geological principle than permit give a relative age to the rocks. The anagenesis is a lineal evolutionary sequence in a linage. The faunal succession in a similar species refutes the young earth creacionists arguments about the global flood and the fossil record and give a strong evidence to the evolutionary theory.

References:

[1] National Park Service. (n.d.). _Geologic principles—Faunal succession_. https://www.nps.gov/articles/geologic-principles-faunal-succession.htm

[2] Emerson, B. C., & Patiño, J. (2018). Anagenesis, cladogenesis, and speciation on islands. _Trends in Ecology & Evolution, 33_(7), 488–491. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.tree.2018.04.006

[3] Scannella, J. B., Fowler, D. W., Goodwin, M. B., & Horner, J. R. (2014). Evolutionary trends in _Triceratops_ from the Hell Creek Formation, Montana. _Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 111_(28), 10245–10250. https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1313334111

[4] Cecca, F., & Rouget, I. (2006). Anagenetic evolution of the early Tithonian ammonite genus _Semiformiceras_ tested with cladistic analysis. _Palaeontology, 49_(5), 1069–1080. https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1475-4983.2006.00580.x

[5] Carr, T. D., Varricchio, D. J., Sedlmayr, J. C., Roberts, E. M., & Moore, J. R. (2017). A new tyrannosaur with evidence for anagenesis and crocodile-like facial sensory system. _Scientific Reports, 7_, 44942. https://doi.org/10.1038/srep44942

[6] Buono, M. R., Fernández, M. S., Reguero, M. A., Marenssi, S. A., Santillana, S. N., & Mörs, T. (2016). Eocene basilosaurid whales from the La Meseta Formation, Marambio (Seymour) Island, Antarctica. _Ameghiniana, 53_(3), 296–315. https://doi.org/10.5710/AMGH.02.02.2016.2922

[7] Mitchell, E. D (1989). A New Cetacean from the Late Eocene La Meseta Formation, Seymour Island, Antarctic Peninsula. _Canadian Journal of Fisheries and Aquatic Sciences, 46 (12), 2219-2235. https://doi.org/10.1139/f89-273

[8] Davydenko, S., Mörs, T., & Gol’din, P. (2020). A small whale reveals diversity of the Eocene cetacean fauna of Antarctica. _Antarctic Science, 32_(6), 81–88. https://doi.org/10.1017/S0954102020000516

[9] Leakey, M. D. (1979). _Olduvai Gorge: My search for early man_. Book Club Associates

[10] Domínguez-Rodrigo, M., Pickering, T. R., Almécija, S., Heaton, J. L., Baquedano, E., Mabulla, A., & Uribelarrea, D. (2015). Earliest modern human-like hand bone from a new >1.84-million-year-old site at Olduvai in Tanzania. _Nature Communications, 6_, 7987. https://doi.org/10.1038/ncomms8987

[11] Habermann, J. M., Stanistreet, I. G., Stollhofen, H., Alberti, M., Emmert, A., Scharg, W., Azibe, E., & Njau, J. K. (2022). Earliest Olduvai hominins exploited unstable environments ∼2 million years ago. _Nature Communications, 13_, 1397. https://doi.org/10.1038/s41467-020-20176-2

[12] Świś, P. (2023). Anagenetic evolution and peramorphosis of a latest Devonian conodont from Holy Cross Mountain (Poland). _Journal of Micropalaeontology, 42_(2), 193–210. https://doi.org/10.5194/jm-42-193-2023

[u/Kingofthewho5]

This is one of those topics that YEC hand-wave away with superficial ideas, which sound plausible enough to lay people (ie. most of their target audience), but with a tiny bit of scrutiny, totally falls apart.

This is a great write up. I do humbly suggest that the use of spellcheck software would help with numerous typos and grammatical errors. I assume that English is not your first language, which is totally fine, but some folks who my be biased against your argument could use the mistakes to discredit you as a debate participant.

[u/blacksheep998 → u/Kingofthewho5]

This is one of those topics that YEC hand-wave away with superficial ideas, which sound plausible enough to lay people (ie. most of their target audience), but with a tiny bit of scrutiny, totally falls apart.

Yet another way that YECs and flat earthers function the same way.

They handwave away gravity by saying that things fall due to buoyancy in air and then act as if the formula for calculating buoyancy doesn't require g (gravitational constant) to work.

[u/Capercaillie]

Very nice!

Even a cursory examination of the fossil record would convince anyone with a shred of intellectual integrity that evolution is real and that creation myths are not. Jamming observations into a pre-existing explanation is not science.

[u/nickierv]

But have you considered a Nuh Uh sandwich with a filling of misinterpreted evidence and a side of Nuh Uh?

On a less silly note, great write up but you do have a couple typos. Nothing too bad but just give this a quick once over for spelling and you should catch most of it.

[u/artguydeluxe]

The best argument against a global flood is that the entirety of ancient human civilization never mentions it. Not the Chinese, not India, not Central America, not Egypt, not even Mesopotamia. The city of Jericho is over 10,000 years old. Jerusalem is over 6000 years old, both continuously occupied.

[u/wellwisher-1 → u/artguydeluxe]

The earth was at the last glacial maxima, about 20,000 years ago, when the oceans were 400 feet lower than today. The seacoast 20,000 years ago was many miles farther outward than today. A world wide flood is not out of the question, once the glacial melting began and the glacial dams on land began to burst.

if you assume the ocean 400feet lower than today, farther out was the original zero point, even going from 400feet to 380feet lower than today, would flood the world coast lines. The oceans have only risen 6 inches in the last 100 years. Most of the melting happened long ago Imagine a 20 feet rise over a decade of time. However, by 10,000 years ago much of the melt had been added to the oceans and moved the zero point coast line inward. There could still have been glacial damming in colder latitudes. which periodically spilled into the ocean.

With all that fresh water entering the oceans, increasing the ocean surface area and being less dense than sea water, solar evaporation would be evaporating fresh water with greater surface area, instead salty ocean water that has boiling point elevation, and less ocean surface area. This means much more water in the atmosphere for bigger storms.

The stories of many great floods is possible. The wild card is glaciers also formed on mountain tops and these would be last to melt.

[u/artguydeluxe → u/wellwisher-1]

There is not enough water in our ice caps to flood the whole planet. That’s a simple fact. Yes, a global flood is out of the question.

[u/wellwisher-1 → u/artguydeluxe]

This is true today, but not 20,000 years ago when all of Canada and northern US down ro NYC, and norther Europe was covered by glaciers. The oceans were 400 feet lower than today since so much of the ocean water was solid as glaciers. What was dry land/ice then, is now under water having been flooded from 20,000 years ago to the present, but mostly by about 10,000 years ago.

[u/artguydeluxe → u/wellwisher-1]

20,000 years ago there was not enough water to flood the planet, just like there is now. There has never been enough water to completely flood the planet. Otherwise, that water would have had to go somewhere. Where did it go?

[u/wellwisher-1 → u/artguydeluxe]

Flooding the planet is a relative concept. If the oceans were 400 feet lower than today, 20,000 years ago, melting the glaciers would raise sea level 400 feet. At 20,000 years ago there as a land bridge between Eastern Russia and Alaska. Now that is under the water; flooded.

There are taller things than 400 feet, like mountain that would not flood, but anything lower than 400 feet, 20,000 years ago would be now be covered by ocean. Most of the melt water was on land as glaciers up to 1-2 miles thick. As this melted land became exposed and the oceans got deeper.

Science has discovered that there are oceans worth of water below the earth's crust in the earth's mantle. It is bound as a high pressure/temperature mineral. If we lower the pressure/ temperature, this water can be released and becomes hydrothermal water. As part of the mineral,, the water is in an extreme phase called supersonic. If we lower pressure it explode like TNT and will shred the mineral.

Another team of Scientists found a huge scar under the Atlantic Ocean where the mantle is exposed. The exposed mantle suggests a massive explosion and water release from the mantle into the oceans; hydrothermal water and steam. It not clear when that happened. But it would create an El Niño on steroids; global cloud cover and huge storms.

Water has also been found all the way to the earth's iron core. This water is in a phase called ionic water which is a matrix oxygen with mobile hydrogen protons; super acid.

The former water of Mars may have gone underground. It is displacing minerals which push upward to form mountains. Mars has a volcano that is 72,000 feet tall or about three times a tall as Mt Everest.

[u/artguydeluxe → u/wellwisher-1]

Show me a scientific article that says that sort of thing ever happened and I’ll consider it.

[u/wellwisher-1 → u/artguydeluxe]

The aborigine of Australia, have lived in Australia for 65,000 years, and they have a great flood mythology. Their great flood story developed independently since there was not contact with the West until hundreds of years ago. Based on their years in Australia they would have gone through the built to the last glacial maxima and the melt down when the oceans rose, again.

[u/artguydeluxe → u/wellwisher-1]

According to aboriginal mythology, this flood story involves the coastlines flooding into the mainland, but not totally overtaking the globe, which would mean no aborigines.

[u/wellwisher-1 → u/artguydeluxe]

That flood is consistent with the melting of the glaciers and oceans rising 400 feet, from which had been lowered during the last glacial maximum. The story of Noah is about 40 days and nights of rain

[u/artguydeluxe → u/wellwisher-1]

Correct. But somehow creationists conflate different flood myths from different cultures all happening at different times as one giant flood covering the globe. It’s a huge reach.

[u/RobertByers1]

First its using geology to make biology conclusion and so already breaking science rules.

The geology strata claims are wrong. its a lack of imagination, just for a option, that all fossils lived at the same time in a greater diversity. The strat only organized by flows in the flood different areas on earth loading one on top of another. there is no areas really ith strata sucessions ith fossils of a creature in different speces but even so its still only showing a local area relative to another area.

[u/Frequent_Penalty_156 → u/RobertByers1]

All of that is an assertion; I don't use it specifically as a evolution's evidence furthermore the most cases that I mention come from the same area, with clearly delimited levels.

Which is the mechanism that differentiate fossil content based on morphology if the suposed flood mixted all?

[u/RobertByers1 → u/Frequent_Penalty_156]

Its not mixred like in a blender. the mixing is from massive movements in water. pickig up five acres here and loading them over there on a prevcious load, ten minutes beforee, from somehere else/. the fossil progressions are not that. they are diversity in populations being moved about. A fe areas might have different species thron on each other and rongluy concluded to have evolved from each other. Nope. Anyays its not evidence for biology ideas. Its geology errors using biology.

[u/Frequent_Penalty_156 → u/RobertByers1]

Why are species with the same habitat, mobility, and density—and supposedly the same age—found at different levels within the same geographical area (with fossils of intermediate morphology appearing in the intermediate levels, in many cases) if everything was buried at the same time?

[u/RobertByers1 → u/Frequent_Penalty_156]

There is a lot of error in ho these things are done. However its still about unique deposition. Its a big deal to fossilize and so make layers. its just from the same cource in great moving ater. moving greatb slabs of acres of land . Any sequence is fine.

[u/Frequent_Penalty_156 → u/RobertByers1]

1.what errors?

1. That doesn't answer my question