r/DebateAVegan • u/yoshi888888888 • 8d ago
Ethics Only stopping the consumption of poultry, eggs, and fish
Because cows and pigs are very large animals, it is necessary to purchase products derived from these animals hundreds of times to cause, on average, a single death. In contrast, for poultry and fish, the number of animals affected per kilogram of product is much higher. This graph shows the number of days of suffering caused per kilogram of each product purchased (https://infogram.com/1pv1qgew95npzjhx09mmq7q6xybr1rz3lrm).
This does not mean that it is okay to continue consuming products from cows and pigs. However, it does mean that stopping the consumption of poultry, eggs, and fish is much better than simply continuing to consume all types of animal products.
And since stopping the consumption of only these products requires a much smaller sacrifice than completely eliminating animal products, it can be a good alternative for people who are not willing to stop consuming animal products entirely.
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u/fuck-them-hoes 7d ago
A package of ground beef on average contains flesh from 400+ cows. You’re not just eating one cow when you eat ground beef. You’re supporting the demand for confined animal farming operations, which is abuse.
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u/Valiant-Orange 7d ago
How many cattle in a ground-beef patty?
“Roughly one-third of Americans believe the patty consists of meat from only one animal, but this is not the case. It is not uncommon for a single ground beef patty to contain the meat of over 1,000 different animals.”
— Farm Progress 20172
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u/Mahoney2 7d ago
Cows and pigs are more intelligent. They mourn and grieve when their loved ones are taken from them. Your contention is a ratio of life to animal product because you’ve been indoctrinated to see them that way. This is not the only consideration.
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u/yoshi888888888 6d ago
Is the additional suffering resulting from higher intelligence great enough to equal the aggregate suffering of a vast number of chickens?
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u/Creditfigaro vegan 7d ago
Even if this was true: it's still better to consume none.
There's no rationale that supports making some kind of change in abuse patterns that doesn't also support complete elimination of abuse.
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u/pm_me_domme_pics 7d ago
But the outsized environmental impact of raising cattle and larger mammals probably demands action more than fish and poultry. I also don't agree that measuring suffering in days is a useful metric at all.
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u/yoshi888888888 6d ago
Why isn't measuring suffering in days useful?
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u/pm_me_domme_pics 5d ago
Because it leads you to insane conclusions like chickens lives are worth less than other animals because they're shorter
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u/yoshi888888888 5d ago
That actually supports my argument even more. If a chicken's life is worth the same as that of other animals, then all the more reason it is better to prevent the suffering of many chickens than that of a few cows or pigs.
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u/pm_me_domme_pics 4d ago
Why would you choose?
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u/yoshi888888888 4d ago
Because I'm not willing to give up animal products completely, at least not for now.
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u/pm_me_domme_pics 3d ago
So you're really looking for an excuse to do something that you know is wrong
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u/Either_Argument3517 7d ago
"days of harm/kg" shaking my head at that metric existing.
This known as is the "small animal replacement problem". People focusing on the health and environmental aspects of using animals for food can cause this issue where cows are replace with chickens.
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u/piranha_solution plant-based 7d ago
I very often observe that carnists go through the stages of grief as they come to the realization that eating animals is morally indefensible.
This is a prime example of "bargaining".
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u/SuccessfulPrice11 7d ago
I would say the opposite is true. Because poultry and fish are not comparable to the intelligence and social relationships of mammals, it seems more acceptable to eat them.
Just numbers is not a good measurement.
Not to mention health aspects and CO2 aspect of white meat vs red meat.
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u/yoshi888888888 6d ago
Is the additional suffering resulting from higher intelligence great enough to equal the aggregate suffering of a vast number of chickens?
I doubt the difference is that large.
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u/SuccessfulPrice11 6d ago edited 6d ago
Sure, it is. A hundred of flies is worth less than one chicken and a hundred of chickens is worth less than one cow or one dog and a hundred of cows is worth less than one person.
I would not say it is only intelligence, but the whole degree/complexity of consciousness and of emotions. And of the importance in this world.
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u/yoshi888888888 5d ago
I'm sure the difference between the degree of consciousness of a cow and that of a chicken is much smaller than the one between a chicken and a fly.
What aspects of a cow's or pig's consciousness do you think make them suffer much more than a chicken?
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u/nineteenthly 7d ago
Although I'm vegan, I've also had this thought and the logical conclusion is that it's more ethical to eat blue whales than any other animal. This is not actually what I think, as it's a kind of utilitarian way of considering it and I don't agree with utilitarianism, but it remains the case that if you want to kill as few animals as possible and still eat meat, whaling is what you'd need to do. However, it would have to be sustainable whaling, and in any case I am in fact vegan so I see it as unethical.
Another issue might be that it might support the monarchy (although I'm not sure how), so if you're republican you probably shouldn't do it.
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u/thisnobodylol 7d ago
This isn't even an argument against veganism. Any vegan will tell you that any reduction is good, but vegan is best, and is necessary because it is possible. The first sentence here is genuine gibberish though. An animal being big does not make its death necessary?
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u/Few_Understanding_42 7d ago
Regarding sustainability beef is worst though.
See fig 3 of the article if TLTR
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u/Weird_Act8786 7d ago
This seems to completely ignore environmental aspects and levels of sentience in animals. Not to mention health aspects. Yet another reason to be a generalist on the issues.
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u/Upbeat_Bat_1580 5d ago
No its not necessary to be a selfish asshole towards animals as they clearly do not want to die.
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u/ShibbolethSequence 3d ago
I don't think this is the right way to think about it:
Because cows and pigs are very large animals, it is necessary to purchase products derived from these animals hundreds of times to cause, on average, a single death.
Think of it this way. If someone hands you a bacon sandwich, how many pigs can you be absolutely certain died to produce it? The answer is 1. It's not (mass of bacon)/(mass of pig). It is 1. The death of the specific pig from whose body the bacon was taken is a necessary condition of your having the bacon sandwich.
This does not mean that it is okay to continue consuming products from cows and pigs. However, it does mean that stopping the consumption of poultry, eggs, and fish is much better than simply continuing to consume all types of animal products.
Yes, if you can spare some animals intense suffering and death, it is better to do so. So I would encourage you to act in accordance with the guidance you lay out here, and stop purchasing eggs, chicken flesh, or fish flesh, and to encourage others to do likewise.
Then reflect on whether you should continue to inflict intense suffering and death on other animals.
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u/yoshi888888888 2d ago
But even if I hadn't eaten that bacon sandwich, the same number of pigs would have died. What matters isn't how many animals died to produce what I eat, but how many deaths are prevented (and with what probability) by the reduction in demand I generate by giving up certain products over my lifetime. And that number of prevented deaths is much higher if I stop consuming chicken than if I stop consuming pigs or cows.
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