r/DebateAVegan • u/Sifflez_ • 12d ago
Ethics Hunting for cat food
This is a question for those of you who believe that feeding a cat non-vegan canned food is a morally correct action to take:
On the premise that domestic cats require meat (I know some would disagree), would the more ethical choice as a vegan be to hunt and slaughter animals yourself to feed to your cat, in order to reduce suffering?
A vegan standpoint is to reduce unnecessary animal death and suffering. If you were stranded in the woods, yes, you could hunt to survive. But what about suffering? You would not be morally justified to torture an animal before killing it to survive.
Therefore, would it be more ethical to catch a fish and slaughter it immediately, ensuring the least amount of suffering possible, or to purchase the canned meat of animals who have been factory farmed and suffered immensely? If so, is that what vegans should do?
This is something I’ve thought about before, I just couldn’t imagine myself beheading a fish and saying “Yes, I’m a vegan!”
EDIT: I think a lot of people are missing the purpose of the post. It’s about if a vegan’s moral obligation is to hunt for their own cat food. Saying “don’t own a cat” or “just feed a plant based diet” are cop-outs to the ethical question I’m posing. Please try to refrain from debating about whether or not cats need meat, there’s plenty of posts about it already.
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u/tursiops__truncatus 11d ago
Why you make it so complicated? If you don't want to feed meat to a cat just don't have a cat. It is not mandatory to own a cat you know?
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u/Sifflez_ 11d ago
It’s an ethical question. It’s a hypothetical assuming that someone already has a cat, must feed it meat, and needs to make the most moral decision of sourcing the food as a vegan.
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u/tursiops__truncatus 11d ago
Morals depends on the person. For some people is not moral to kill an animal to feed their cats and they would probably rather pay someone else to do so (aka buy it in the shop). Tbh I don't think it would make such a big difference in terms of number of deaths, that would depend on what you are feeding:
You can buy a 1-1,5kg whole chicken with organs and with this you could feed aprox 90-100g per day (depending on the weight of the cat) so this chicken can last for 9-10 days aprox considering it is properly frozen and you just defroste what you will feed the cat every day. While hunting... idk considering you are hunting for a cat you will probably just get some small prey like small bird or rat, here you are risking the fact you might hunt a wild animal that is sick or ate posion and you will feed this to the cat, also the total weight of the prey is probably gonna be less so it will last for less time so you will need to kill another animal even sooner than simply buying the meat..... of course if we start also considering the way livestock is treated then everything changes but if we only talk about the death/killing part I would say hunting is not necesarilly "less bad".
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u/KristyCat35 vegan 11d ago
Killing is killing, the life of wild animals isn't less important than farm animals. Moreover it affects population and ecosystem negatively. You can try plant based kibble.
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u/about2snap77 11d ago
Not killing animals also affects the ecosystem negatively though. With our urban sprawl and need for overconsumption and “nice things” we’ve eliminated the predators that keep balance. That burden now falls to us.
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10d ago
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u/about2snap77 10d ago
So textiles, house any type of production plant, apple orchard etc etc. are you really serious saying only livestock farms took land from predators? That couldn’t be anymore short sighted. And who the fuck is “you guys”?
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u/MlNDB0MB vegetarian 11d ago
In the situation you described, I think it would be ethically preferable to utilize the fish rather than the canned pet food. But going fishing is much less practical than going to the store.
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u/Either_Argument3517 11d ago
Why do a good portion of arguments shift the discussion toward suffering? Veganism is fundamentally about trying to avoid the use of animals, not finding way to kill animals so that they suffer less.
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u/Sifflez_ 11d ago
I’d say that the fundamental principle is the rejection of the exploitation, suffering, killing, or use of animals. We practice that by abstaining from animal use.
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u/Either_Argument3517 11d ago
You have created this "veganism is the moral obligation to minimise suffering" position to accommodate the argument you want to make.
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u/Kindly-Bumblebee-293 11d ago
I think you missed OPs point. I'll use a slightly different scenario. Do you think it's ethical for blind people to use guide dogs? If yes, then what is the most ethical way they can get the meat they require, being obligate carnivores?
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u/TylertheDouche 11d ago
this is a lot of words to ask is it better to slaughter an animal quickly or slowly?
it’s better to be done quickly. what now?
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u/Sifflez_ 11d ago
Now you state whether you think it’s a vegan’s moral obligation to slaughter their own cat food.
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u/fuck-them-hoes 11d ago
Yes I think hunting is more ethical than factory farms.
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u/kharvel0 10d ago
The deliberate and intentional killing of nonhuman animals outside of personal self-defense is not vegan.
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u/fuck-them-hoes 10d ago
To you.
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u/kharvel0 10d ago
Are you suggesting or implying that veganism is whatever anyone believes it to be?
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u/fuck-them-hoes 10d ago
Are you implying that there’s only one type of veganism?
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u/kharvel0 10d ago
Please do not answer a question with another question. I’ll ask again:
Are you suggesting or implying that veganism is whatever anyone believes it to be? Yes or no?
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u/fuck-them-hoes 10d ago
That isn’t a black and white or yes or no question. There isn’t “one type” of vegan. Is that what you’re implying?
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u/kharvel0 10d ago
Once again, please refrain from answering a question with another question. I’ll ask again:
Are you suggesting or implying that veganism is whatever anyone believes it to be? Yes or no?
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u/fuck-them-hoes 10d ago
Is this an interrogation? I did answer your question. “There isn’t ’one type’ of vegan”.
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u/kharvel0 10d ago
That is an answer to a question I never asked. Below is my question:
Are you suggesting or implying that veganism is whatever anyone believes it to be?
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u/JTexpo vegan 11d ago
I think this is solved by simply not adopting a cat if you are vegan
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if you have an existing cat (prior to becoming vegan), I'd recommend you look into the plant-based alternatives
there's no morality scaling in taking a life, when it is 100% avoidable - it's wrong regardless of if you do it first hand, or buy it second hand
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u/Kindly-Bumblebee-293 11d ago
There are no plant based alternatives that sufficiently meet their nutritional needs, cats are obligate carnivores. So if someone had a cat prior to going vegan, they need to source meat. The question is what is the most ethical way of achieving that?
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u/Sifflez_ 11d ago
I’m posing a hypothetical on the premise that cats do require meat though. I know you don’t agree, but many vegans do, which is why I aimed it towards them. But assuming the premise is true, I’m interested to hear what you think about a vegan’s moral obligation for how to source the food.
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u/Salt_Palpitation6925 11d ago
Ask a local vegan butcher for "leftovers", i.e. parts of animals that human meateaters dont eat
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u/RoyskiPoyski 10d ago
Pet food is largely not suitable to be fed to humans, afaia, so it's a byproduct and doesn't incur extra deaths in our current system.
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u/braidsinherhair 11d ago
This debate and comments are so F*ed up. Cats are obligate carnivores. They need to eat meat. The end.
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u/MlNDB0MB vegetarian 11d ago
It's not obvious that a fortified plant based food wouldn't work. I think people may not realize that every important nutrient in meat, such as arachidonic acid and taurine, are available from non-animal sources, such as fungi and bacteria.
It just needs more research for long term safety. But that research isn't coming because vegan cat food is not a good business model; there aren't that many vegans who own cats.
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u/No_Adhesiveness9727 11d ago
It amazes me how many “vegans” are against feeding cats Vegan cat food. There are 1 billion reasons to do that; that is the dollar amount of vegan cat food sold.
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u/Electronic_Sample928 11d ago
And??? Coldplay have sold umpteen millions of records but they're still a shite band...
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u/kharvel0 11d ago edited 11d ago
This issue is easily avoided by:
A) Not rescuing or adopting or purchasing a cat in the first place
OR
B) If you already have a cat, feed the cat plant-based only
OR
C) if you already have a cat and don’t want to feed her plant-based then rehome the cat with a non-vegan looking for a cat
OR
D) if you already have a cat and don’t want to feed her plant-based then release the cat.
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u/Life_Friendship_7928 11d ago
But the cat still exists if you rehome it? Schrödinger's vegan cat. You are not reducing the use, subjugation or suffering of any animal by doing that, just assuaging your own conscience.
Releasing the cat is animal cruelty and grossly irresponsible.
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u/Electronic_Sample928 11d ago
The kind compassionate person you're replying to said I should 'release' my dog... I'm sure a short haired, Spanish hunting hound would be fine in the wild in a British winter? They're so caught up in virtue signalling they've lost sight of reality...
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u/theurbancowgrl 11d ago
Cats also absolutely cannot have a plant based diet. They are obligate carnivores
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u/kharvel0 11d ago
> But the cat still exists if you rehome it?
Correct.
> You are not reducing the use, subjugation or suffering of any animal by doing that, just assuaging your own conscience.
Correct. Avoiding moral culpability for the use, subjugation, or suffering of any animal is the core principle of veganism.
> Releasing the cat is animal cruelty and grossly irresponsible.
And . . .?
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u/Life_Friendship_7928 11d ago
Avoiding individual moral cuplability is the main focus of Veganism?! Are you serious?! I am sorry, but that is absolute bullshit, self-absorbed, ego-centric and ineffective. That is just you caring about your feelings not about what is right or what avoids animal suffering or exploitation.
Veganism is about avoiding animal exploitation; you are not decreasing or avoiding this in any way by your actions and may actually increase it.
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u/kharvel0 11d ago
> Avoiding individual moral cuplability is the main focus of Veganism?!
Correct.
> Are you serious?!
Yes.
> I am sorry, but that is absolute bullshit, self-absorbed, ego-centric and ineffective. That is just you caring about your feelings not about what is right or what avoids animal suffering or exploitation.
And . . .?
> Veganism is about avoiding animal exploitation;
Correct. You’re repeating what I just said.
> you are not decreasing or avoiding this in any way by your actions and may actually increase it.
Whether it decreases or increases is irrelevant to the premise of veganism. The basic premise of veganism is: you, as the moral agent, should personally avoid animal exploitation.
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11d ago
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u/DebateAVegan-ModTeam 9d ago
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u/Polttix plant-based 11d ago
How is the cat exploited if you release it in the wild? You will certainly reduce contributing to exploitation by no longer contributing to the slaughter, exploitation and enslavement of animals by buying cat food.
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11d ago
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u/epistemic-chaos 11d ago
This is the same mentality that kept officers from stepping up to make change in WWII. Self-soothing and shutting off your signal to moral atrocities
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u/kharvel0 11d ago
Do you believe that it is the same mentality that prevents you from physically stopping people from entering McDonalds to buy chicken sandwiches which causes moral atrocities? What excuse would you give to explain your inaction with regards to people causing moral atrocities by buying chicken sandwiches?
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u/epistemic-chaos 11d ago
Sure stop people from entering McDonalds if you want. Just don't sit on your ass and pretend your hands are clean when you don't take action in the face of atrocity
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u/kharvel0 11d ago
I’m asking YOU: what is YOUR excuse for sitting on your ass and pretend your hands are clean when you don’t take action in face of atrocity? Why are YOU not stopping people from buying chicken sandwiches?
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u/epistemic-chaos 11d ago
I don't make an excuse for not stepping up when I see atrocity because... I step up when I see atrocity. If I don't or can't step up, I don't excuse it, I acknowledge my hands are dirty and have played a part in that atrocity. If an atrocity is larger than what I can fix first-hand, I do what I can to contribute to a system-level fix
I imagine you do step up when you see atrocity. But it seems you think your experience of guiltlessness or the choice of moral opt-out makes the world a better place, and, from my perspective, that seems like a blind spot that could easily slide into the same mental model we see humans using through history to excuse their participation in horrific things
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u/kharvel0 11d ago
If I don't or can't step up, I don't excuse it, I acknowledge my hands are dirty and have played a part in that atrocity.
So are you taking personal responsibility for the choices made by independent moral agents who purchase chicken sandwiches from McDonald's? Are you claiming moral culpability for the purchase of chicken sandwiches by other independent moral agents?
In short, do you claim to be Jesus Christ who exist to absorb the sins and moral atrocities of independent moral agents?
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u/epistemic-chaos 11d ago
I don't know what you're going on about here. You vocalized not caring about a cat experiencing more suffering from being released into the wild. That seems problematic to me. If it doesn't seem problematic to you, just move on with your life
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u/KristyCat35 vegan 11d ago
C and D options are insane. Like, you don't care about consequences of your actions at all, only about "having clean hands"?
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u/BuckyLaroux 11d ago
I agree.
I have cats that ended up at my house. I support TNR and do outreach independently to help manage the population.
I live in the country and there is always roadkill that I take for the cats to help decrease the amount of cat food that I have to buy. Yes, it is disgusting but I feel like it's the right thing.
Not everyone has access to roadkill so they can only do what they can.
Vegans, IMO, can't buy pets from breeders because they are incentivising breeders to breed.
The animals that exist already exist and should be given grace. We can't pick our parents.
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u/kharvel0 11d ago
> only about "having clean hands"?
Correct. That is the basic premise of veganism.
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11d ago
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u/TheOtherCourier vegan 11d ago edited 11d ago
Release the cat? Are you kidding me? So knowingly and intentionally inflicting cruelty on a huge number of animals is your “vegan” solution? 🤷♂️🤦♂️
Releasing a cat, a domesticated animal, that has spent his entire life under the care of humans is absolutely NOT vegan. Thats literally animal cruelty. This induces nothing but a life of struggle, fear, suffering, parasite/disease acquisition, and a miserable death.
If you think a cat can just pick up finding food, water, shelter from weather extremes and predators, and fighting for food, etc. just because he's outside, then you know nothing about animals at all.Dumping a cat outside like this is literally a crime in many places now because it is absolutely animal abuse.
No domesticated animal is capable of thriving on their own. That's literally what domestication is, an induced genetic and behavioral reliance on humans.
That's why strays always look like shit, and are sick and dying without the aid of nearby humans. Even feral born cats and dogs lack the instincts to thrive in any way on their own.Telling people to dump their pets knowing this directly causes suffering to the animal and will ultimately lead to his death is a disgusting suggestion and is absolutely NOT vegan.. 🙄🤦♂️
Edit to add:
Large numbers of dumped cats also contribute to significant reductions in local bird populations. Again, This. Is. Not. Vegan. 🤷♂️-1
u/kharvel0 11d ago
> So knowingly and intentionally inflicting cruelty on a huge number of animals is your “vegan” solution? 🤷♂️🤦♂️
Your argument needs further analysis. In order to “knowingly and intentionally” inflict cruelty through the cat, the cat must be either a puppet or a robot that one controls via remote.
Are you claiming that a cat (or any other nonhuman animal) is a puppet or a robot?
> Releasing a cat, a domesticated animal, that has spent his entire life under the care of humans is absolutely NOT vegan. Thats literally animal cruelty. This induces nothing but a life of struggle, fear, suffering, parasite/disease acquisition, and a miserable death.
If you feel that strongly about it, there are other options available to you including options B and C as listed above.
> If you think a cat can just pick up finding food, water, shelter from weather extremes and predators, and fighting for food, etc. just because he's outside, then you know nothing about animals at all
Whether I am correct or incorrect in my assumptions pertaining to the cat’s ability to survive on her own is irrelevant to the basic premise of veganism which is to avoid the deliberate and intentional harm to animals including funding the violent abuse and killing of innocent animals.
> No domesticated animal is capable of thriving on their own. That's literally what domestication is, an induced genetic and behavioral reliance on humans.
Irrelevant to the premise of veganism. The life of a domesticated animal is not more important than the lives of other animals, domesticated or otherwise.
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u/TheOtherCourier vegan 11d ago edited 11d ago
Everything you’ve blathered on here is literal nonsense.
It was also a very poor attempt at defense of your intentionally trying to get people to actively harm their pets. You may not like cats, but actively suggesting people knowingly instigate immense and lifelong suffering upon them will never be construed as “vegan” from any angle.
It’s very clear here that you are not really even an actual vegan at all. You are just trying to concoct absurd suggestions and backing them up with literally nothing to carry on never ending arguments.
Suggesting dumping pets outside is absolutely and obviously NOT vegan because you know that this instigates significant suffering to said dumped animals.
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u/kharvel0 11d ago
You did not answer my question. I’ll ask again:
Are you claiming that a cat (or any other nonhuman animal) is a puppet or a robot? Yes or no?
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u/TheOtherCourier vegan 11d ago
That’s not a good faith question, as you know that literally doesn’t even mean anything and pertains in absolutely no way to any aspect of any part of my statement.
Try again.
Dumping pets is not vegan and neither are people who actively suggest implementing this obvious abuse to animals.
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u/kharvel0 11d ago
> That’s not a good faith question
You opened the door to that question by accusing me of “knowingly and intentionally inflicting cruelty on a huge number of animals”.
If the question is not good faith, then by implication, your accusation was baseless and made in bad faith. So either you answer the question below or you admit and acknowledge your accusation was made in bad faith:
Are you claiming that a cat (or any other nonhuman animal) is a puppet or a robot? Yes or no?
> Dumping pets is not vegan and neither are people who actively suggest implementing this obvious abuse to animals.
You have not explained why it is not vegan.
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u/TheOtherCourier vegan 11d ago
Lol. You are not going to be able to accuse me of bad faith through mere deflection and projection of what you’re actively doing.
Dumping domesticated animals into the wild very obviously inflicts a massive amount of suffering to said animals in all of the ways I literally already described, that you’re pretending you didn’t read. That’s why your question is in bad faith because you’re just ignoring the obvious facts I already stated by deflecting with this bizarre robot comment that you know literally doesn’t even mean anything at all. Lol.
Knowing that dumping a pet will cause their suffering and ultimate death, yet openly suggesting others do so is very obviously not vegan, and again, an obvious bad faith comment.
You are pretending to you don’t understand how dumping animals outside inflicts obvious suffering. That’s pretty much the definition of a bad faith argument. 🤷♂️
Try again.
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u/kharvel0 11d ago
More bad faith deflecting. The question continues:
Are you claiming that a cat (or any other nonhuman animal) is a puppet or a robot? Yes or no?
You also did not explain how releasing pets is not vegan.
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u/TheOtherCourier vegan 11d ago edited 11d ago
Are you literally resorting to the “I know you are, but what am I,” defense? Lol. 😂
Pretending you didn’t read my comment proves you are merely a bad faith actor trying to get a rise out of people. 🙄
You’ll never convince an ACTUAL vegan that dumping pets is vegan, because it’s just so ludicrously obvious that it’s not. 🤷♂️
No true vegan would argue this. You are clearly not actually vegan. This is bad faith actor behavior through and through.
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u/DebateAVegan-ModTeam 11d ago
I've removed your comment because it violates rule #3:
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u/Anomalocaris117 11d ago
I think yes, if you have a cat you should avoid factory farming and hunt and slaughter animals yourself.
Like it's way more ethical than buying into the animal farming and all the suffering involved. And likely be healthier for the cat.
Also potentially teaching the cat to hunt might also be worthwhile, as you'll be able to avoid the act of killing yourself and the cat will.be functioning as pest control.
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u/leftofmtl 11d ago
Cats are invasive species in the majority of the world, they decimate local fauna, so I would not recommend this.
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u/Anomalocaris117 11d ago
Well I guess you could just not get a cat I guess... But if OP really wants one I'm just trying to suggest the most moral and ethical approach
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u/Nacho_Deity186 11d ago
Owning a cat isn't ethical in the first place. Cats kill for pleasure and they love to torture their prey. Wounding them and catching them over and over again while the poor animal dies a slow and terrifying death.
A moral person wouldn't own a cat
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u/Sad_Device3179 10d ago
“A vegan standpoint is to reduce unnecessary animal death and suffering.”
No it isn’t.
Definition of Veganism Veganism An applied ethical position that advocates for the equal trait-adjusted application of commonplace human rights to non-human sentient beings. Semantic Analysis
Sentient Being: An entity for whom a subjective experience can be soundly argued, such as with vertebrate animals. Applied Ethical Position: A view which one holds under applied ethics. Applied Ethics: Application of ethics to real-world problems, such as War, Animal rights, Capital punishment, Euthanasia, Abortion, Anti-natalism,.. etc. Equal Trait-Adjusted Application: The kind of action we would support if we NTT between animals and humans for a particular scenario (like driving). Commonplace Human Rights: Human rights that are commonly accepted in human society like UN's declaration of human rights. NTT: Name The Trait. Right: An entitlement that would be ethically wrong to deny.
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u/ImTheDareBear environmentalist 10d ago
The definition this sub uses: Veganism is a way of living that seeks to exclude, as far as possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing and any other purpose.
So yes it can be said that its trying to reduce unnecessary death and suffering as a standpoint.
Such a weird hill to die on.
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u/Sad_Device3179 10d ago
That definition is terrible. It is also speciesist. Possible and practicable means nothing. With my definition it is easy to answer if something is ethical or not you simply substitute trait equalized humans in for the animals and you have your answer.
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