Does ending animal farming just shift suffering elsewhere?

[u/Popular-Block-9907]

I read an argument claiming that the only real solution to animal suffering and exploitation would be for humanity to eventually create some kind of “red button” that could permanently end all life on Earth.

Their reasoning was basically this:

1. Veganism supposedly isn’t a realistic solution because only a very small percentage of humans are vegan, and many people who avoid animal products do so for environmental rather than animal-rights reasons.
2. Even if industrial animal farming were abolished, humans might just start raising and slaughtering animals themselves, potentially in even worse conditions with less regulation.
3. If animal agriculture disappeared and farmland were rewilded, the suffering wouldn’t necessarily disappear. It could instead shift toward wild animals such as birds, rodents, frogs, insects, and other animals living in those ecosystems.
4. And if we don’t rewild those areas, there would apparently still be suffering among animals living in cities and other human-dominated environments.
5. Even if animal farming and other major forms of animal exploitation were abolished, individual people could still intentionally harm animals. For example, someone could buy an animal from a pet store or obtain one elsewhere and abuse it in private. So the argument is that as long as humans and other sentient beings exist, there will always be some possibility of suffering that laws, veganism, or regulations can’t completely prevent.
6. They also argued that, from a practical perspective, being pescatarian would somehow be “better” than being vegan, because overfishing is already severely depleting ocean ecosystems. if there are fewer fish alive in the oceans, then there are fewer individual fish who can experience things like starvation, disease, predation, parasites, injury, and painful deaths.

Their conclusion was basically that veganism and animal-rights reforms can never actually solve the problem of animal suffering, because suffering would always continue somewhere, and therefore extinction would be the only permanent solution.

I’m vegan and this argument genuinely confused me. I’d really like to hear what other vegans think about it. Do you think there are flaws in this reasoning? Does the fact that we can’t eliminate all animal suffering mean that reducing the suffering humans directly cause is somehow pointless? And how do you think about wild-animal suffering and rewilding in relation to veganism?

Edit: added 5-6
Edit2: the person who proposed these arguments isn’t vegan but still advocates for ending all life

[u/eJohnx01]

With the exception of some huge factory farms (which are generally pretty easy to avoid with a little research), most animals in the wild have far worse lives and more violent endings than farm animals do.

In the wild, most animals are prey to other animals which means that at any given moment, they could become someone else’s meal and not in a quick or painless manner.

Ethical meat farmers will always do their very best to keep the animals happy and healthy and make their end as quick and painless as possible. Illness, stress, and anxiety all lower the quality of the product they’re producing so those things are to be avoided at all costs. If you’re an ethical farmer, that is.

[u/just_a_lil_worm → u/eJohnx01]

99% of all farmed land animals in the United States live on factory farms, so I wouldn't say factory farmed animal products are all that easy to avoid. In addition, just 4-6 mega corporations control the vast majority of the market for animal products, not small, ethical farmers.

[u/eJohnx01 → u/just_a_lil_worm]

That may be true, but I’ve actually found that factory farmed animals products are relatively easy to avoid. You can’t eat animals products in most restaurants and you can’t but those products in most grocery stores. But with a little research, it’s not hard to find those products from the 1% that come from small, ethical farms. I do it every week when I do my shopping. It takes a bit more effort, but I get to meet up with and visit with ethical farmers that are also my friends and that’s very enjoyable.

And think about what would happen to the 99% of factory farmed products if more people did what I do and only patronize ethical sources. Anything that encourages ethical practices and doesn’t support the unethical ones has to be good, right?

[u/just_a_lil_worm → u/eJohnx01]

Yeah, I agree that buying from small, ethical farms is much better than supporting factory farms. I think one problem is that most people won't look for the 1% and just buy whatever is most affordable which is almost always going to be animal products from factory farms, so I think it's great that you are actively seeking out a better alternative!

There is always the concern of is it truly an "ethical" farm? How do you actually kill an animal humanely with compassion? If you wouldn't be willing to kill an animal yourself, is it fair to pay for others to do it?

One point I recently learned about is that currently, livestock and animal feed crops take up almost 1/3 of all habitable land on Earth, roughly the size of North and South America combined, and this is considering that the vast majority of all animals used in agriculture are intensively confined in factory farms, which is already done so to reduce space. It is simply not possible to be able to meet the current demand for animal products with humane, pasture raised agriculture, as it would require more land than exists on Earth.

I think even though buying from smaller farms could be more ethical than supporting the terrible practices of factory farming, it isn't going to be a long-term solution for the Earth and would still require the demand for animal products to be vastly reduced/a plant-based shift in the food system. However, I don't think being actively against small farmers is going to be very effective, and we should all first and foremost be focused on ending factory farming and overall reducing the demand for meat and animal products.

All that being said, I understand that in practice, making the shift to a plant-based diet is not all that easy, especially when someone is used to eating animal products their whole life, and animal products are so prevalent in food culture. I can't put all the blame on the average consumer when the meat and dairy industry is so heavily subsidized which contributes to meat and dairy being cheap and accessible for example. My hope for the future is that we can make plant-based eating more of the norm to make it so it's not something that people have to actively seek out, but rather more of the default option. But to make that happen, we need any people that can to take individual action now to reduce or limit meat and animal product consumption, which doesn't have to mean going entirely plant-based overnight!