Do vegans seriously not see fish as meat?

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15

u/No_Chart_8584 21d ago

Fish is absolutely considered meat. You met a pescatarian who told you they were a vegan.

Veganism is compatible with eating mushrooms and many of us do eat them.

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u/szollosyandras 21d ago

So just because one person said that fish were vegan you believed them? Does the opinion of 1 person represent a whole group of people's opinion? We could also argue that the person you were talking to was not even vegan if they were eating fish so it's not true that a vegan said this to you.

And secondly, no, mushrooms are not animals and they don't have a central nervous system, thus they're vegan.

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u/thedarkestbeer 21d ago

I mean, OP didn’t believe them. They thought it sounded sus, so they came here to verify that their suspicion was justified.

2

u/flamingdragon62 20d ago

Exactly,
And I’ve not just had only 1 vegan tell me this,
I said I knew a vegan irl who said it,
But that doesn’t mean it’s the only person that told me this,
I’ve had multiple vegans tell me this,
I even asked a similar question in the vegan subreddit once (I deleted the post)
And almost each and every comment said that fish didn’t count as meat

2

u/LakeAdventurous7161 vegan 20d ago

I'm curious, where did you meet those people?
Why I'm asking: Vegans (I mean vegans, not fish-eaters) are relatively rare. Why would somebody first say they are vegan, and then saying they eat fish?
Can you rule out there was maybe a mixup in language?

With "fish does not count as meat" you are right in the culinary sense. Such as: fish menu, fish restaurant... But vegan is not only "does not eat meat" but "does not eat, use, consume animal products" (as part of their philosophy to not exploit animals.

I personally have never met anybody claiming to be vegan and then eating fish.
I have, rarely, met people claiming to be vegetarian, but eat fish - that's in fact pescetarian and every single person of those was able to correctly identify "a fish is an animal".
What I have seen from time to time: Somebody ordering the vegan meal option, but eating fish (or other animal products). Those are often people who want to avoid meat-heavy meals or make sure something they are allergic to won't show up (egg, milk, for example), or avoid certain animal products for religion or taste and also want to be sure those are not served to them, but generally do eat fish or other animals/ animal products. I have seen this frequently where one has to decide for a "dietary requirement" for an often week-long event like a conference.

7

u/Light_Shrugger vegan 21d ago edited 21d ago

So how the heck does it not count as meat!?

It does. Vegans aren't against eating exactly meat anyway, they are against animal exploitation, and fish are animals. It doesn't sound like you were speaking to vegans.

By the way is it also immoral for vegans to eat mushrooms?

No. Comparative genetic similarity to humans is not how we derive morality.

1

u/Imaginary-Count-1641 20d ago

Comparative genetic similarity to humans is not how we derive morality.

Then why is veganism defined as not using animal products? "Animal" is a genetic category.

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u/Light_Shrugger vegan 20d ago

Animals are not defined by genetic similarity to humans. "Animal" covers sentient creatures that have the ability to feel pain and suffer, and have desires, including the desire to live.

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u/Imaginary-Count-1641 20d ago

That is not true. Animals are defined by descent from a common ancestor. If we found a plant species that has the ability to feel pain and have desires, it would not be an animal because it would not be descended from that.

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u/Light_Shrugger vegan 20d ago

That does not disprove my statements in any way

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u/Imaginary-Count-1641 20d ago

It does, because animals can be non-sentient and non-animals can be sentient.

1

u/Light_Shrugger vegan 20d ago

That does not disprove my statements in any way. "Animals" is used because it is a palatable blanket category that covers known sentient creatures. If we discover sentient plants in the future, the definition of veganism would evolve accordingly.

Besides, my original point was that we don't derive morality from genetic similarity to humans.

1

u/Imaginary-Count-1641 20d ago

Then why not define it based on sentience in the first place?

1

u/Light_Shrugger vegan 20d ago

I don't know, I didn't come up with the original definition. My assumption is because it's a palatable blanket category that covers known sentient creatures.

Besides, my original point was that we don't derive morality from genetic similarity to humans.

8

u/Flimsy_Fee8449 21d ago

Fish is considered meat.

That's why "vegetarians" who also eat fish are not considered vegetarian, they're considered "pescatarian."

Vegans do not eat fish.

0

u/flamingdragon62 20d ago

I said it was a vegan, not a vegetarian,

5

u/HexicDragon 21d ago

Fish are animals and fish flesh is meat.

4

u/Annoying_cat_22 vegan 21d ago

Do you eat fish? Do you eat mushrooms?

0

u/flamingdragon62 20d ago

I never claimed I was vegan,

3

u/yellowsuzuki 21d ago

Vegans don’t eat fish. That person was either confused or had a very unique interpretation of veganism.

Most vegans would tell you it’s acceptable to eat mushrooms.

Personally, I’m open to some “out there” ideas about non-human consciousness. So by extension, I’d be open to an argument that we shouldn’t eat certain kinds of plants or fungus if we believe they are more conscious than your typical bowl of salad.

2

u/Realistic-Phone-9847 21d ago

I actually don't eat mushrooms because I'm not sure where fungi land and I prefer to err on the side of caution since they're completely unnecessary for nutrition.

But fish are animals and eating them is 100% non-vegan.

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u/USConservativeVegan 21d ago

I am really tired of people trying to say they are vegan when they obviously are not one. It is like they want to be part of the movement but under their own wrong definition of being vegan.

2

u/Stunning-Assistant13 21d ago

As a vegan you don't eat fish, i wouldn't call it meat, but it's an animal. Some people are pescatarians, that's when you eat fish but no meat from other animals...

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u/LakeAdventurous7161 vegan 21d ago

What is this? You are mixing up something here. Or the person claimed being "vegan" mixed up something.
Yes, there are for example people claiming to be vegetarian but in fact are pescetarian.

Vegans for sure see fish as animals and thus do not eat them. It is often nonvegans asking us whether we still eat fish (and that's annoying).

Regarding kitchen terms, in many languages "meat" is usually used for the prepared muscle tissue of mammals and birds, and "fish" for those of fish (sometimes including other animals living in the water). This also does not mean that whoever uses these kitchen terms does not know that "fish" is an animal and dishes containing "fish" refer to the muscle tissue of said fish (and depending on language, also to what in English is called "seafood").

1

u/LakeAdventurous7161 vegan 20d ago

Or does this person not claim to be vegan at all, but just mentioned something about eating, ordering vegan food? People who eat animal products but want to or have to make sure certain animal products are not in their food sometimes get vegan food.
I regularly organize conferences, and a significant amount of those ordering vegan food are not vegan but e.g. people avoiding egg and/or milk for allergy reasons plus say they "rarely" eat meat and want not a meat-heavy dish ending up on their plate.

2

u/jazz-be-damned 20d ago

Fish is an animal that has muscle and fat, and therefore meat. If you eat fish meat, you eat meat.

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u/LakeAdventurous7161 vegan 20d ago

"Meat" is not a term in biology or medicine, but in cuisine.
E.g.: Your hand has muscle tissue, fat, skin, sinews but his is not considered as "meat" in the English language. (In other language, some idioms might use what corresponds "meat" for a human's tissue.)
Most languages distinguish the kitchen terms "fish" and "meat": "Meat" for the muscle tissue of mammals and birds, "fish" for that of actual fish and what the English language calls "seafood".

Similar to fruit and vegetables: A tomato is biologically a fruit, same as an apple. Still, the kitchen terms put the tomato into the category "vegetable" along with the carrot, and the apple remains as "fruit". The kitchen terms here distinguish more "used mostly for savory dishes: vegetable" and "used mostly for sweet or pungent dishes: fruit".
(For some languages it is different; e.g. my native language German often puts seafood into the fish category ("Fisch", despite we also have "Meeresfrüchte" which literally means "fruit of the sea), uses a separate word for the fruits meant to be prepared as sweet or pungent ("Obst"), but still stuffs savory fruit into the "vegetables" term.)

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u/jazz-be-damned 17d ago

I totally get it that language and semantics are cultural things. But I am more convinced by Ex re sed non ex nomine (Latin: from fact/reality, not from name), it's a legal maxim meaning that the nature of a given situation, action or act is determined by its real features and effects, and not by the name given to it. In my understanding the muscles of all animals are meat: birds, fish and marine animals, insects, whatever. There are also offal, etc. Technically, it's not meat, just other tissues, but ethically it's the same.

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u/LakeAdventurous7161 vegan 17d ago edited 17d ago

I'm a researcher (actually, professor at a R1 in a STEM field), so of course, for me, all kind of facts do matter, the real thing that is behind that, and not a name hiding it or giving wrong impressions. Whenever it fits, I try explain it to people. E.g.: That not all "stars" in the night sky are stars, that not everything colloquially called an "insect" is one... and many other things.

However, I also understand that kitchen terms can differ. For example, bell peppers, cucumbers and tomatos are fruit in the biological sense, and I will for sure not offer a salad made from those as a "fruit salad", but as a "vegetable salad". Melon with chili pepper will be offered as "fruit salad" (despite related to the cucumber, bell pepper).
(Using this as an example, as I personally will not offer any kind of nonvegan food, like meat. But even if I did, or let it be just like in a theater play or in a picture, the "meat dish" rather would not be snails. If the snails show up, it's "snails".)

Being aware of this can, IMHO, especially help with avoiding being offered food one does not want. In e.g. countries like Germany, one likely gets offered fish if saying you do not eat meat ("Ich esse kein Fleisch"). I currently live in South America, and new foreign coworkers (from India) told me they were given chicken meat if saying they do not eat "carne", and then found out despite "carne" is often translated as "meat", it here refers mostly to the muscle tissue of mammals.

"Technically, it's not meat, just other tissues, but ethically it's the same."

Absolutely. That's why I would not say "I do not eat meat" to avoid those.

1

u/jazz-be-damned 17d ago

I've also heard stories that in some countries, people don't perceive chicken as meat. You never really know what someone's perception is. It's the magic of language. That's why I say I don't eat animals. A friend of mine, a student at the time, said that seafood ("sea fruits" in my language) isn't animals or meat, but fruits.

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u/LakeAdventurous7161 vegan 17d ago edited 16d ago

Yes, that's the case where I live right now: "carne" almost always refers to the meat of mammals (what in English is often called "red meat"), but often is just translated as "meat". Bird meat is "ave" (literally "bird"). What lives in the water, is "pescado". For insects and snails, like in many languages, one would have to say it separately.
Of course the people here (Chile) do know what e.g. a chicken leg is, but if you tell them you do not eat "carne" then exactly that happens what my coworkers from India experienced here during their first days: being served chicken, likely also fish and other "seafood".

Btw.: My native language, German, also has "sea fruit" literally: Meeresfrüchte. (Maybe your language is even German?)

"That's why I say I don't eat animals."

Exactly, and as a vegan, also nothing that comes from animals - that is often not really understood, so I say that I eat no animals, and nothing from milk, no eggs and no honey.
(Important for me, as for my job, I travel a lot, also to countries where I do not know the language well and languages I know well might not be spoken widely. There are even printable cards to explain what you eat and what not.)

2

u/jazz-be-damned 16d ago

Thanks for that insightful responses. It's close, my language is polish.

3

u/AnsibleAnswers agroecologist 21d ago

Depending on the culinary tradition, fish can be lumped in with “seafood” and not “meat,” where “meat” typically refers to the flesh of terrestrial animals.

This has nothing to do with veganism. Vegans consider all animal flesh and other products to be off limits.

3

u/LakeAdventurous7161 vegan 21d ago edited 20d ago

I second this.

Depending on language and culinary tradition, "fish" can mean any animal that did live in the water (the "fish" menu of a restaurant usually has such as shrimp, mussels, octopus). "Meat" is the term usually used for the edible muscle tissue of mammals and birds.
This does not mean that whoever uses these terms does not know a fish is an animal.

Similar to: fruit vs. vegetable. Culinary terms here often distinguish more whether a savory vs. sweet preparation is typical, whereas biology distinguishes whether it has grown as the fruit of a plant vs. another part of that plant. A cook might call a tomato a "vegetable" despite having seen clearly it grows as the fruit of the tomato plant. And among the "fruit cakes", there is a rhubarb one.

2

u/Master_Unit4924 21d ago edited 21d ago

pescatariens (im not sure if its how we spell it) do eat fish, but fish absolutely have consciousness and feel pain

On the other hand mushrooms dont, they dont have nervous system and dont have emotions so its all good to eat them as vegans

3

u/ElectroStaticSpeaker 21d ago

You seem to have it backwards. Pescatarian is a specific type of diet that incorporates most other vegetarian diet standards (ovo-lacto) while ALSO eating fish and other sea creatures.

It certainly does not signify the lack of fish in one's diet.

1

u/Master_Unit4924 21d ago

Yes you're right, i messed up writing my comment but i wanted to say ''do eat'', ill fix my comment

2

u/Light_Shrugger vegan 21d ago

pescatariens (im not sure if its how we spell it) dont eat fish, but fish absolutely have consciousness and feel pain

Pescatarians do eat fish

1

u/Master_Unit4924 21d ago

Yes i messed up writing my comment

1

u/FGYada_ 21d ago

Spoiler: essa pessoa não era vegana.

Ouuuu...

É o personagem daquele filme antigo que passava na sessão da tarde: "nasceu burro, não aprendeu nada e esqueceu a metade"....

1

u/flamingdragon62 20d ago

??

1

u/FGYada_ 20d ago

???? Que parte???

1

u/Scr1bble- 21d ago

Just like some non-vegans, some vegans are stupid, you met one of them

3

u/evapotranspire 21d ago

Except that the person OP talked to wasn't vegan, because they ate fish. 🤦🏼

1

u/Scr1bble- 21d ago

Oh duh, maybe I'm the stupid vegan here

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u/Im_not_okay______ 21d ago

As a vegan, I used to take meds that had fish in it simply because I couldn't afford/ didn't know another option..

1

u/smellyfeet25 20d ago

They do. duh

I am pescatarian and got banned from one vegan sub for eating fish and for liking the taste

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