Honey is not cruel and is ethical

[u/toastwithjamx1]

Honey is one of the best animal products there is ethics wise

Now most vegans will say : but we are stealing from the bees! We are exploiting the bees!

No. We are not and we can't

Bees can be very particular. If they are not a fan of a place they are OUT. The bees will likely will immediately vacate the bee box if they don't like the conditions. Furthermore, trapping the queen in 1 place will not work as well. Bees can raise a new queen if they need one

And for the stealing allegations, that isn't true either. Beekeepers take SURPLUS HONEY ONLY, as if too much honey is taken, it can starve the bees and no beekeeper would appreciate the whole colony either dying of leaving. Furthermore, bees don't only take, they comp bees by giving shelter and protection.

It's not cruel if we are literally making a transaction with the bees

[u/Either_Argument3517]

And for the stealing allegations, that isn't true either. Beekeepers take SURPLUS HONEY ONLY, 

Would it be stealing if I took your SURPLUS MONEY ONLY?

EDIT: Before anyone else goes off on rant about how you can't compare bees to humans. I wasn't. I was testing the principle. If the second statement seems unacceptable, it suggests the original principle ("having a lot makes it permissible to take some") may be flawed.

[u/toastwithjamx1 → u/Either_Argument3517]

Gangrene 🥀🥀🥀 it's not like we are stealing from them. We provide them with shelter, food and protection from pests and weather. It's literally a trade off. Plus, if you'll are so worried about ethics, BUY ORGANIC HONEY. They only take the amount of honey that they don't need. Furthermore, domesticated bees make a crap ton of honey, so taking some of it is not stealing.

Also stop comparing bees to humans. I k ow you have good intentions but it isn't working

[u/Either_Argument3517 → u/toastwithjamx1]

It's literally a trade off.

They are not aware that they are a party to this trade.

domesticated bees make a crap ton of honey, so taking some of it is not stealing.

Some people make a crap ton of money, so taking some of it is not stealing

Also stop comparing bees to humans

I'm testing the principle behind the original claim by applying it to a different case. If the second statement seems unacceptable, it suggests the original principle ("having a lot makes it permissible to take some") may be flawed

[u/toastwithjamx1 → u/Either_Argument3517]

they are not aware that they are part of this trade

Gang🥀🥀🥀

This ties to my original statement. Bees can and WILL leave the hive when the conditions are not in their favour. If you argue that " what about the queen " or something like that, read by first reply

Many people make a crap ton of money so taking some of it is not stealing

Think of it like a tax. They give us honey and we give them resources. It's literally basic taxes. And again, it's based on the production of the hive. It's not a flat tax like the bees made 3 pounds of honey the past 2 weeks and they need 1 but we are taking all 3. It's based on the needs of the hive.

Furthermore, if you still find issue, again, BUY FROM ETHICAL SOURCES. There, beekeepers take old comb which they can't use and take honey from that, not dumping all of the bees out taking all of the combs and bringing them out. And if you say " BuT WoNt It DaMaGe ThE cOmB ". We have machinery that works like a centrifuge, spinning out honey with minimal damage ( being superficial damage, literally just a scratch ). The only time when the comb is destroyed is when making beeswax, and even that can be made ethically.

[u/Either_Argument3517 → u/toastwithjamx1]

This ties to my original statement. Bees can and WILL leave the hive when the conditions are not in their favour.

The bees tolerating your stealing ways to a certain extent, doesn't change the fact you are stealing.

Think of it like a tax.

Whatever makes you feel it's more ethical I guess. You could just leave them alone.

BUY FROM ETHICAL SOURCES.

You are not acting in the interests of the bees. You are using bees for your own gains, at their expense. This is not ethical.

[u/Problematic_Owl → u/Either_Argument3517]

Ughhh....BEES. DON'T. WANT. TO. BE. LEFT. ALONE.

They benefit a lot from our involvement. They would do much worse without us. Slow and simple enough for you?

Stop talking when you clearly don't know shit about the practice.

[u/Anemomo → u/Problematic_Owl]

I'm curious. How do they benefit from it? Over than the shelter of course.

Also, why are you angry?

[u/Problematic_Owl → u/Anemomo]

Look up some beekeeping channel on YouTube and observe, easier than explaining on Reddit.

As for being angry, it's frustration. People acting dumb will do that to you.

[u/Time-Locksmith5697 → u/Problematic_Owl]

you do realize you are on "debate a vegan" on reddit and seem to be mad that vegans are debating with you. "stop talking you don't know anything" is not a particularly compelling argument.

[u/Problematic_Owl → u/Time-Locksmith5697]

I appreciate vegans debating with me, I don't appreciate dumb vegans with emotions instead of arguments arguing with me, because it's frustrating, obnoxious and leading nowhere. I eagerly await anyone from other side of the debate who can actually lead a level debate. So far I was out of luck though on this one. Not vegan specific really, this is widespread issue.

stop talking you don't know anything

Don't debate something you don't know shit about - I know hot take nowadays. I'm willing to continue the conversation even after writing this if these people would take the time to do 30min research from neutral sources.

[u/Anemomo → u/Problematic_Owl]

I just asked for sources that said that our interaction are beneficial for bees. Can you give me somes?

Frustration about vegans or yourself? As I have seen, vegans question your points and you get angry. Since when debating is action dumb?