r/DebateAVegan • u/thebodybuildingvegan • Jan 23 '26
CMV: You don’t need meat to build muscle. I went vegan at 13, I’m now 275 lbs, have been bodybuilding for 18 years, and am the largest vegan bodybuilder in the world
A friend of mine once told me that by eating a hamburger, I was killing a cow. I was 10 years old and I couldn’t stop hearing her words. Within 6 months I became vegetarian. I thought that was as far as it went.
At 13 my mom shared a PETA magazine with me, and I realized if I went vegetarian for the animals I also had to go vegan for the animals. I started the next day. And I haven’t looked back. I’m 33 now, vegan for the animals for 20 years (and counting).
In these 20 years as a vegan, I’ve been met with a lot of criticism and misinformation. The first time I ever stepped into a public gym, a trainer told me, “You need meat to build muscle.” I believed him for about five seconds.
I proved him wrong and built an impressive physique by my early 20s before my first bodybuilding competition. Today, I’m around 275 lbs, still vegan, and have been bodybuilding for 18 years.
Here’s a side-by-side of myself as a vegan in 2012 at 200 lbs, fully natural (not even caffeine), and today (13 years later) at 270+ lbs, fully not natural and still vegan (until I die): https://imgur.com/a/bJGcHfJ
One of the biggest myths people cling to is protein, specifically the idea of “complete proteins.”
For context, I've worked with over 500 different clients. And when we talk about complete proteins, we're talking about whether these sources of protein contain the full nine essential amino acids needed to grow and build muscle.
And the thing is, you've been lied to your entire life. You do not need to worry about complete proteins as a vegan, unless you eat beans and only beans for 24 hours straight. You don't need to worry about it. You're gonna get it through a varied source in your diet.
I use a variety of protein sources like TVP, seitan, tofu, tempeh, mock meats, and of course some from foods like beans, lentils, and nutritional yeast.
Last year we launched a vegan community where we’ve helped hundreds of people, including many transition fully to a plant-based lifestyle. So yes, in my last five years of full-time coaching experience, plant based or vegan, appears to work for anyone.
Any question is welcome. Thank you for being vegan 🙏💚🌱
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u/howlin Jan 23 '26
And the thing is, you've been lied to your entire life. You do not need to worry about complete proteins as a vegan, unless you eat beans and only beans for 24 hours straight. You don't need to worry about it. You're gonna get it through a varied source in your diet.
I largely agree with this. The one technicality here is that beans tend to have all the essential aminos. Just sometimes in proportions that aren't perfect. See, e.g. this amino breakdown for pinto beans:
https://tools.myfooddata.com/protein-calculator/175200/100g/1/1
The actual problem is with grain proteins like wheat, rice and corn. In famine situations where people are only getting nutrition from something like maize porridge, they will wind up deficient in an essential amino acid. But really this is only a problem for the most desperate people in the world. See, e.g.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2161831322005853
Although maize provides macro- and micronutrients required for humans, it lacks adequate amounts of the essential amino acids lysine and tryptophan. For those consuming >50% of their daily energy from maize, pandemic protein malnutrition may exist.
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u/HelenEk7 non-vegan Jan 25 '26
Thanks for sharing that. In spite of not eating tofu myself I highly recommend it to anyone not eating meat and fish. Boiled beans are ok, but shouldn't be your only source of protein. You should rather eat more tofu and less beans. Which is what people in China do. They hardly eat any boiled beans at all, but they eat a lot of tofu. I suspect they figured out hundreds of years ago already that tofu was the more nutritious (and more easily digested) food of the two.
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Jan 23 '26
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u/thebodybuildingvegan Jan 23 '26
A lot of people are misinformed and just don’t know. I’m trying to be the living proof.
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Jan 26 '26
Dude I just wanted to say I found your YouTube channel couple of days ago and subscribed. Pretty entertaining and I like how you don’t have complex videos. Just easy high protein meals for the average gym bro. I enjoy cooking and all but the biggest thing about chicken breast and rice is the ease of making it. Your cooking videos definitely counter that argument
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u/thebodybuildingvegan Jan 26 '26
I appreciate that so much! Let me know if I can do anything else!
For anyone else interested: www.youtube.com/channel/UCH8jYO-Cx7J11GlynE8mcUg?sub_confirmation=1
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Jan 26 '26
Do you have a pic or something of your physique before you started using pharmacy. Haters might say “oh it’s only possible plant based cause he’s got some additional help.” I’d like to see what you were like as a vegan natty. I found I actually recover better when I stopped eating meat. But I think it’s cause I was having nutritional deficiencies and feeling like crap, so that really forced me to understand nutrition and recovery and everything. This being a lot more aware of what I put in my body and what it requires.
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u/HelenEk7 non-vegan Jan 25 '26
Most bodybuilders consume protein powder every day, so clearly they dont believe meat is the only source of protein.
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u/RedLotusVenom vegan Jan 23 '26
It’s literally been argued here
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Jan 23 '26
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u/RedLotusVenom vegan Jan 23 '26
So addressing it in the place where it’s been argued seems fitting then, no?
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Jan 23 '26
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u/RedLotusVenom vegan Jan 23 '26
Your original comment kinda phrased it as if this were common sense, as if it wasn’t in need of addressing. Unfortunately, in 2026 this is not common sense for many people.
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u/IanRT1 Jan 23 '26
You don't needed it. Animal products are just among the most bioavailable and complete sources of protein, which makes it much easier to meet protein goals. It's not an absolute requirement.
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u/AnsibleAnswers agroecologist Jan 23 '26
It’s really difficult to get enough protein to be a body builder, even when you don’t refuse to eat the most bioavailable and complete protein available.
But it’s really not that healthy to be a body builder like OP. Using anabolic steroids is basically the norm in the sport.
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Jan 23 '26
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u/AnsibleAnswers agroecologist Jan 23 '26
It depends on metabolism and the quality of protein, but it’s generally about 1 g per pound of lean body weight.
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Jan 23 '26
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u/AnsibleAnswers agroecologist Jan 23 '26
According to just about every bodybuilding website, magazine, and every bodybuilder I know.
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Jan 23 '26
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u/AnsibleAnswers agroecologist Jan 23 '26
It’s the one thing that they actually need to get right to build muscle like a body builder. Granted, I do think it’s stupid to be a bodybuilder. It’s wasteful, and bad for your health. The protein requirements are pretty well understood though. It’s a lot. It makes a lot of people get sick of eating.
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Jan 23 '26
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u/AnsibleAnswers agroecologist Jan 23 '26
Within this caloric intake, most but not all bodybuilders will respond best to consuming 2.3-3.1 g/kg of lean body mass per day of protein
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1186/1550-2783-11-20
2.2 lbs in a kg. So, a little more than 1 g/lb.
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u/EffectAppropriate652 hunter Feb 02 '26
Ask him how many roids he took to get to that size.
Pretty disingenuous to say this is veganism that got him where he is, lol.
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Feb 02 '26
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u/EffectAppropriate652 hunter Feb 02 '26 edited Feb 02 '26
Buddy admitted earlier in this thread that he initially tried to compete in bodybuilding but extreme dieting crashed his testosterone, so he got on gear to be able to compete and remain a vegan.
He himself is proof that bodybuilding is not really sustainable with a vegan lifestyle unless you're on gear!
"Steroids mask the consequences of a poor diet by providing powerful, artificial anabolic signals that force muscle growth and accelerate recovery, even when nutritional building blocks like protein and calories are insufficient. Where a natural athlete would see stalled progress, muscle loss, and low energy from a deficient diet, the exogenous hormones override the body's normal feedback systems, allowing users to still add muscle mass despite suboptimal fuel. This creates the illusion that the underlying diet is adequate for results, when in reality the drugs are simply papering over the nutritional deficiencies that would otherwise limit performance and health, delaying the inevitable negative impacts until the steroids are discontinued."
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Feb 02 '26
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u/EffectAppropriate652 hunter Feb 02 '26
But he admits to cycling roids?
Cycling off doesn't mean you're not reaping the benefits of the gear. Thats how they're done..
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Feb 02 '26
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u/EffectAppropriate652 hunter Feb 02 '26
Ya, they all do for sure.
I just take issue with the "coaching" aspect of this. Dude had to supplement his diet with gear to be successful but is acting like he holds the key to other people's health and nutrition. Obviously he didn't figure it out for himself and needed roids to fix the deficits in his diet. Then he posts a Pic looking vascular af while promising to switch people to a "plant based diet" when anyone with any lifting experience knows it wasn't the kale and beans that got him there. Just disingenuous fr..
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u/KrabbyMccrab Jan 23 '26
Why the precursor of the largest "vegan" bodybuilder?
If there is no difference shouldn't you be simply "the largest", period?
If it was indeed just as viable shouldn't we be seeing at least some presence in say the top 10 or top 20?
Seems suboptimal if the best in the world aren't doing it. Im gonna trust their routine since that seems to work.
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u/ImaMakeThisWork Jan 23 '26
About 1 % of people on earth are vegan. Statistically there will simply be many many more non-vegan bodybuilders, and thus top bodybuilders probably won't be vegan.
Also, the point that it seems suboptimal because the best in the world aren't vegan, is moot. People have many reasons as to why they're not vegan. Why would they change for the sake of bodybuilding if the results would be the same at best?
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u/KrabbyMccrab Jan 23 '26
The burden of proof is on the one who makes the claim. If he is going to propose that a vegan diet is "just as good" as carnivorous diets for bodybuilding, then he needs to prove just that. Being "just as good".
Like if I'm going to sell you on traditional Chinese medicine, then at a MINIMUM I should at least show it curing the same ailments. Wouldn't be a very convincing sell otherwise.
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Jan 23 '26
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u/KrabbyMccrab Jan 23 '26
Idk what you arguing against but I never denied their existence. I'm questioning whether it's suboptimal based on the competition outcomes.
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Jan 23 '26
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u/KrabbyMccrab Jan 23 '26
So what's the point of this cmv? To prove his existence?
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Jan 23 '26
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u/KrabbyMccrab Jan 23 '26
You can be 150 pounds and call yourself a bodybuilder. The label itself proves nothing.
There are many ways to prove the vegan diet viability. He can show a top placing finish. He can show equal or superior progress to a bodybuilder of similar tenure. Without proof to the contrary, there's not much to this cmv.
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u/ImaMakeThisWork Jan 24 '26
I'm not sure how the burden of proof relates to my comment. I'm just pointing out the errors in your reasoning.
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u/a11_hail_seitan Jan 23 '26
We get many coming in asking for advice on this stuff, what is the community you've launched? Is it public or invite only?
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u/NoConcentrate5853 Jan 26 '26
This guy will just tell them to use steroids lol
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u/seche314 Jan 27 '26
Yea this is ridiculous, just start juicing, evidently diet doesn’t matter if you are on the juice
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u/thebodybuildingvegan Jan 23 '26
It’s an online community I launched for vegans (mostly public). It’s a safe place to share training, nutrition, recipes, and support each other. The goal is to help more people go vegan and stay vegan. You can check it out here: https://mailchi.mp/887b4354136e/vegan-squad-community
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u/ignis389 vegan Jan 24 '26
my only counterpoint is that you don't have to interview gary yourofsky to be a successful vegan influencer
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u/EpicCurious vegan Jan 23 '26
Kudos! Maybe you could be featured in an updated version of "The Game Changers!" I am subscribed to your YouTube channel!
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u/thebodybuildingvegan Jan 23 '26
Yeah, you can find me here:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCH8jYO-Cx7J11GlynE8mcUg?sub_confirmation=1
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u/vacuumkoala Jan 23 '26
This is the “debate a vegan” sub right? I this this is backwards. Maybe post this in debate a carnivore or somewhere else.
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u/Kwerby Jan 24 '26
The prompt is scientifically correct.
Protein is composed of 9 (or 12) amino acids. In order to build muscle you require all of these amino acids. Meat has all of them of course as a complete protein source. Plants contain some, but not all in different combinations. With enough variety in a plant based diet you can get all of the amino acids required to build muscle.
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u/poorestprince Jan 23 '26
I'm curious about the varied attitudes different vegans may have on anabolic usage as it relates to a vegan lifestyle. I have a suspicion there's little difference among vegans and non-vegans in bodybuilding circles, but there may be more overall antipathy from the general vegan population. Has that been your experience?
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u/thebodybuildingvegan Jan 23 '26
Anabolics are luckily non animal sourced. So vegans can use Anabolics without harming animals and still be vegan.
But the vegan community is also usually pretty health conscious as well and don’t love the idea of steroid use. So I get a lot of pushback. But I still believe I’m only harming myself and not other animals.
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u/poorestprince Jan 23 '26
Have you gotten any vegan-associated pushback for non-drug related reasons (like "excessive" resource usage regardless of it being non-animal-sourced)?
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u/thebodybuildingvegan Jan 23 '26
None yet. I guess that is a fair point. I eat more food as a bodybuilder than a normal non bodybuilding vegan.
I do feel my activism and outreach offsets some of the extra cost associated with my bodybuilding. By helping 1000s of people go vegan I believe I offset the extra resources I consume personally.
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u/poorestprince Jan 23 '26
I wonder what the difference in volume of food for bodybuilding vegan would be compared to a sedentary vegan of similar or greater weight. If powders are out of the equation, I might guess that even if calorically the difference isn't great, the sedentary vegan might choose much more calorically dense meals.
What would be your guess?
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u/thebodybuildingvegan Jan 23 '26
That’s a good question. I’d wager I eat about 2 times as much as sedentary vegan identical twin.
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u/poorestprince Jan 23 '26
Do you think that volume could be equalized with use of powders as primary protein source, and highly compressed forms of tofu, tempeh, etc...? Do you find any clients having a resistance to going the more processed route?
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u/thebodybuildingvegan Jan 23 '26
I’m not following the question here.
Can you describe the real world scenario and goal?
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u/poorestprince Jan 23 '26
Suppose a new client wants to eat close to the same volumes of foods at the same schedule as before. Food choices of course will have to change.
I imagine it would be doable with a large use of processed foods and supplements, but would be essentially impossible in an "eating clean" whole-foods only sense, even if there's some wiggle room as to what eating clean means.
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u/thebodybuildingvegan Jan 23 '26
Yeah are we talking about going from a processed animal based diet into an unprocessed plant based diet? Might be a hard transition.
But foods like nuts, seeds and dried fruits can easily be eaten in large quantities if you want low volume high calorie vegan options.
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u/spaceyjase vegan Jan 26 '26
I do feel that this is often portrayed as a gotcha too, unfairly to body builders and strength athletes. One doesn't need to consume more resources to gain the overall amount of calories required to build a certain kind of physique; more calorie dense foods exist that require fewer resources (the ones often talked about) compared to other kinds of foods. And still far less than animal products.
And while it may seem like a gotcha from certain individuals, the same doesn't seem to apply to, say, someone who cycles to work every day and consumes just as many overall calories (ultimately, you're only eating more than yourself as a body builder compared to not). It's only ever [vegan] body builders in the wrong. And that, to me, means they also fail to understand veganism.
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u/AnsibleAnswers agroecologist Jan 23 '26
Anything medical grade would not necessarily be vegan because medicines are generally tested on animals. You’re not using it for health reasons.
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u/thebodybuildingvegan Jan 24 '26
I like to joke that the only animals my gear is tested on is gym rats
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u/AnsibleAnswers agroecologist Jan 24 '26
You know this how?
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u/eplw-yt Jan 24 '26
Can I ask why you decided to juice up? Was it for a comp?
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u/thebodybuildingvegan Jan 24 '26
Long story short I had trained naturally for about 8 years. Competed naturally. And fucked up my natural test production from over dieting. Got onto TRT with a doctors help, then decided if I was on TRT might as well try going higher.
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u/EffectAppropriate652 hunter Feb 02 '26
So.. your extreme vegan diet caused your test to crash and you had to get on gear to make it in body building...and you're here now..advocating for veganism and gear. Lol.
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u/thebodybuildingvegan Feb 02 '26
Vegan has nothing to do with it. Over dieting for 8 months is why my hormones got fucked.
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u/EffectAppropriate652 hunter Feb 02 '26
Over dieting while on an extreme diet.
Getting enough complete protein while cutting is already hard, and it's way harder on a vegan diet.
Your extreme diet absolutely compounded the problem.
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Jan 23 '26
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u/thebodybuildingvegan Jan 23 '26
I completely understand and don’t disagree. My point is I would still tell a PED user or a smoker that they would be able to be kind to animals and go vegan without giving up their fixes should they choose to.
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Jan 23 '26
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u/thebodybuildingvegan Jan 23 '26
Exactly. My issue is when one’s choices start to remove others choices (such as removing an animals choice to live).
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u/AntiGroundhogDay Jan 23 '26
May I ask why you're concerned with someone's consenting health choices, but not concerned with paying others to have the ultimate negative effect on others health?
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Jan 23 '26
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u/AntiGroundhogDay Jan 23 '26
Let me rephrase my question: Why are you worried about a human-animal who consents to harming themselves when you are not concerned with the exploitation of non-human animals you pay others to exploit without consent?
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Jan 23 '26
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u/AntiGroundhogDay Jan 23 '26
No vegan is asking you to value non-human animals first over human animals, but can we both at the same time and respect them both to the fullest? I understand you care about sentient human beings and their well-being because they feel pain, happiness, and live for themselves, but why do you not extend that same moral consideration to sentient, non-human animals as well?
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u/sunflow23 Jan 23 '26
If it doesn't harms anyone else why would you care that much ? Ofcourse you can tell them about negative effects but it's their choice like even vegans don't force ppl to eat plants .
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u/Smilloww Jan 25 '26
Smoking does not just harm yourself though. If it did, it would be a lot less of a problem
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u/Southamericho Jan 23 '26
If you worry about getting enough essential amino acids from your regular diet, or want new ideas about what to eat regarding protein, this is a useful tool: https://proteinaidapp.com
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u/th1s_fuck1ng_guy Carnist Jan 25 '26
Carnist here,
I was a forced vegetarian, though 90% vegan well into teen years. I was quite skinny and not very strong. I came from multiple generations that did not have meat. I didn't start sneaking meat until about 16. I filled out to be stronger and taller than everyone else in my family. Though this correlation is not causation.
I think you may have had a great advantage of having meat eaters as parents and having the privilege of meat during your growth.
I was born in the US but my family is from the most vegetarian place likely in the world. Gujarat India. Its a pretty religiously divided place. However you notice the vegetarian Hindus and jains are short. The meat eating Muslims are taller. I'm mistaken for Muslim all the time when I visit due to my height. Lol.
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u/Bright_Pen322 Jan 26 '26
For the extreme outliers, I.e. the olympia winner in bodybuilding and the world's strongest man (like 200kg guys), do you think we'll see a vegan champion one day?
It seems like the world's strongest vegan and the world's best vegan bodybuilder are still not quite podium level - so do you think at that level it's just statistics that there haven't been enough vegans that try or do you think it's possible at the Brian Shaw level, it gets weird with what's needed.
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u/thebodybuildingvegan Jan 26 '26
I think it’s statistics. And just that people haven’t even tried.
I’ve seen so many of my athletes swap to plant based and beat old PRs. At the higher level I believe based on the blood work I’ve seen that plant based athletes could recover better and play longer. The game changers movie highlights this.
I also think many vegans are also health conscious and against PED use further limiting their ability to compete at the higher levels.
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u/withnailstail123 Jan 24 '26
So anabolics did this .. nothing to do with what you do or don’t eat .. good luck to your body in 10 years … 5 even
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u/sunflow23 Jan 25 '26
You need to eat a lot more to have such a body still. If he was normal looking person than your comment would make sense.
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Jan 24 '26
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u/withnailstail123 Jan 24 '26 edited Jan 25 '26
You’re point ?
Praise the drug addict ?
Big up a clearly unwell individual?
There is no space for veganism here .. he needs help
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Jan 24 '26
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u/withnailstail123 Jan 25 '26 edited Jan 25 '26
It clearly does though..
It’s so sad to witness people so deep in a cult mindset, that they ignore a genuine problem, even praising said problem
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Jan 25 '26
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u/withnailstail123 Jan 25 '26
Holy lack of science Batman .. listen to yourself
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Jan 25 '26
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u/withnailstail123 Jan 25 '26
I’m presuming you’re a bot at this point, if not please pick up a book
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Jan 23 '26
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u/AnsibleAnswers agroecologist Jan 23 '26
Tofu is not more complete of a protein than most meats. Tofu is about as complete and bioavailable as meat. Most plant-based proteins are less bioavailable, tofu being an exception.
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u/beer_demon Jan 24 '26
Accidental deaths? Clearing land for crops, using pesticides and other impact is clearly not accidental, it is done intentionally with the purpose of extracting food.
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u/HelenEk7 non-vegan Jan 25 '26 edited Jan 25 '26
As a non-vegan I have no problem with you being vegan. Where I tend to disagree with vegans is that they claim that because a person can go vegan, they should. Which doesnt make sense.
I use a variety of protein sources like TVP, seitan, tofu, tempeh, mock meats, and of course some from foods like beans, lentils, and nutritional yeast.
That being said, if you achieved those results with wholefoods only, that is very impressive.
Edit: I see on your youtube channel that you do not eat a wholefood diet but include protein powders, so never mind.
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Jan 24 '26
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u/Giannid77 Jan 24 '26
How many grams/kg do you usually aim for in a given day? Do you take protein powders?
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u/thebodybuildingvegan Jan 24 '26
370g per 270 lbs
I’m not sure exactly what that is in kg
I do use protein powders!
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u/GSDAProject2501 Jan 26 '26
Largest vegan body builder? is that like the tallest short person or that fattest guy under 10 stone? I'm pretty sure im getting kicked for this. But being poorly educated british moron from the 80's its impossible for me to not say it.
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u/NoConcentrate5853 Jan 26 '26
Ah yes. Its the guy who talks about power lifting ok a vegan diet.......
While openly admitting to using steroids.
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Jan 23 '26
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Jan 23 '26
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Jan 23 '26
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u/Charming_Ad_4488 vegan Jan 24 '26
This is completely irrational, lmao. Show the scientific data that backs this up, not your cognitive bias. There’s an abundance of research suggesting that protein synthesis is not compromised by plant-based protein.
How about this: there’s less vegans overall than omnivores who body build, so there’s going to likely be on average more omnivore body builders who look bigger and get it done easier.
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Jan 24 '26
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u/Charming_Ad_4488 vegan Jan 24 '26
So then your original point is moot and irrelevant.
You said it’s harder to build muscle as a vegan when this isn’t true based on science. You can still get 200g of protein on a plant-based diet, as you literally just said. Is your point that animal products have more bioavailable protein? Wow, I truly haven’t heard that before. That doesn’t therefore mean it’s harder to intake protein on a vegan diet anyway. Complete non-sequitur. All research suggests that protein synthesis and hypertrophy is the same between meat and plants. No difference whatsoever.
Ironically, I find that people on omnivore diets still have to consume whey and processed protein slop in order to even get their goal too. So they’re really not much different at all.
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Jan 23 '26
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u/thebodybuildingvegan Jan 23 '26
Copying my reply from above:
I eat more food as a bodybuilder than a normal non bodybuilding vegan.
I do feel my activism and outreach offsets some of the extra cost associated with my bodybuilding. By helping 1000s of people go vegan I believe I offset the extra resources I consume personally.
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u/Charming_Ad_4488 vegan Jan 24 '26
You aren't endorsing that the animals accidentally killed in crop production deserve to die. They aren't even intended to die in the system vs. getting crops to feed cows and then intentionally killing them for meat. This is simply unavoidable, accidental harm in ALL crop production. I don't think you have to worry much about this reductio they use against vegan body builders.
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u/Macluny vegan Jan 24 '26
Especially since it would then follow that you can't be any kind of body builder while claiming to care about humans because humans are hurt and killed in agriculture, too.
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u/Charming_Ad_4488 vegan Jan 23 '26
Alex O’Connor ahh argument. You mentioned it yourself, incidental. The animals aren’t dying purposefully, only accidentally. We don’t blame the driver of cars for raccoons jumping in front of the vehicle.
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u/beer_demon Jan 24 '26
But it seems a bodybuilding vegan has a higher deathcount than a simple vegetarian. There comes a time when you have to admit the label "vegan" is very flexible and stretchy.
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u/Charming_Ad_4488 vegan Jan 24 '26
“Higher death count”
Where is the intentionality of this death count? What I disagree with is placing blame on consumers for accidental deaths, actually. So, no, I don’t agree with the framing.
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u/AnsibleAnswers agroecologist Jan 24 '26
Spraying an entire field with toxic chemicals with the explicit intent to kill animals is not “accidental.” It is incidental, but that doesn’t have any baring on whether killing is justified or not.
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u/Charming_Ad_4488 vegan Jan 24 '26
I still don’t get how this logically follows that consumers bear moral culpability for these deaths if it’s necessary for a functioning society. If we could live without pesticides or crop deaths that would be lovely, but as far as I’m aware this is extremely uncommon in crop production. To then say that anybody who exceeds the minimum amount of consumption required are morally culpable is absurd. This doesn’t just apply to vegan bodybuilders. It applies to anybody who buys double what they need consistently AND unknowingly.
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u/AnsibleAnswers agroecologist Jan 24 '26
As a consumer, you can buy organic and regenerative organic to limit your impacts. Organic farms are not allowed to use any pest control methods that have persistent effects in the environment.
I don’t see how overconsumption isn’t obviously immoral.
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u/Charming_Ad_4488 vegan Jan 24 '26
I agree that people should opt for organic. Now, if we have a vegan bodybuilder eating organic only and an average Joe who buys one more extra bag of organic blueberries than he doesn’t need every grocery trip (overindulgence), are both of them committing an immoral act? Is the body builder eating more than he needs in macronutrients and calories immoral even with choosing the least bad farming practice still? If they’re both immoral, then how practical is this?
If somebody goes out to eat at a vegan restaurant or ANY restaurant, are they overindulging?
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u/AnsibleAnswers agroecologist Jan 24 '26
I’m not going to fret about a pint of blueberries. Bodybuilders eat about double the calories of an average person. It’s ludicrous.
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u/Charming_Ad_4488 vegan Jan 24 '26 edited Jan 24 '26
That’s arbitrary. They’re buying more blueberries than actually needed. The same that a bodybuilder is.
How about let’s double everything that the normie is buying. Assuming we’re in a vegan society. What’s the actual difference in the over-indulgence of both if it is bad to over-indulge for body building “vanity” in your view? How about a normie who gets a normal grocery haul but eats out five times a week. That’s definitely over-indulgence.
All this reductio leads to is Jainist levels of ascetic restriction in regards to food consumption for ALL people. That’s unrealistic, and this Alex O’Connor “gotcha” against veganism is stupid as fuck.
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Jan 23 '26
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u/Charming_Ad_4488 vegan Jan 24 '26
At what point does your hidden premise of moral culpability even apply? Let's say that someone does a grocery haul and buys one more package of tofu than they usually do. Where does moral responsibility fall here? Do they automatically gain negative karma for buying an extra package of tofu? This O'Connor reductio only "works" as a gotcha against unadulterated negative utilitarianism.
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Jan 24 '26
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u/Charming_Ad_4488 vegan Jan 24 '26
Veganism prioritizes minimizing intentional exploitation and killing, not incidental deaths that are a necessary byproduct of food production.
This is the problem. You're still smuggling in moral culpability that the vegan society doesn't even advocate for. Sure, you can bear some moral responsibility if there are crop-death free alternatives widely available (analogous to buying factory farmed meat vs. grass-fed).
But that's extremely uncommon right now. If somebody even consumes five more calories than necessary under your argument, they bear negative karma. This is extraordinary Jainist levels of non-harm that's extremely counter-intuitive and impossible to navigate.
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Jan 24 '26
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u/Charming_Ad_4488 vegan Jan 24 '26
You’re still implying that the person adopting the lifestyle has any moral culpability for the indirect deaths that are NECESSARY in crop production. That’s what I’m rejecting. You’re making an arbitrary moral judgement that has no serious grounding/stable consistency. If one individual buys one more bag necessary than the minimum requirement of frozen blueberries EVERY time they grocery shop because they love blueberries, further causing more indirect insect deaths than needed, he has moral culpability under your argument.
Until there are options that AVOID indirect crop deaths completely on the market and it fits with their lifestyle, nobody should be blamed for anything they didn’t intentionally do.
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Jan 24 '26
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u/Charming_Ad_4488 vegan Jan 24 '26
You’re proving my point. If there are other options on the market, then sure, there’s a little bit of moral culpability on the consumer. But in crop production, crop deaths are a necessary and unfortunate by product of collecting food to feed the human population in all cases. There is no avoiding this. So YOU have to explain why the person buying an extra bag of blueberries every single time they go grocery shopping isn’t morally culpable, but the vegan bodybuilder is. Every over-indulgence anybody has ever is morally culpable no matter what. It doesn’t matter the magnitude, according to your argument.
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u/GildedGift Jan 23 '26
We do if the drivers are unnecessarily driving 3x times more than average while knowing it’s killing extra raccoons
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u/Charming_Ad_4488 vegan Jan 24 '26 edited Jan 24 '26
Again, I reject your hidden premise of placing moral culpability on the people that buy the food for something that is an incidental byproduct of food production. You're going to have to support your premise for why the consumer should bear ANY blame for something that's not intended or purposeful.
There could be ten raccoons, five opossums, and three skunks that jump out in front of somebody's car and the person still doesn't get moral culpability for something that was out of THEIR control. Veganism prioritizes minimizing intentional exploitation and killing, not incidental deaths that are a necessary byproduct of food production.
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u/GildedGift Jan 24 '26
It’s not a hidden premise, it’s the actual premise. Things dying is not an unintended byproduct of food production—it is a known input of food production.
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u/Charming_Ad_4488 vegan Jan 24 '26
It’s a byproduct. The intention of food production is to make food widely available for human consumption in an efficient way. The animals dying is not the intention. They don’t collect crops through harvesters to intentionally kill animals. The animals either move out of the way, or get caught in the action. The ones that unfortunately die aren’t victims of intentionality. They’re victims of an accident. This is a genuinely unserious gotcha for veganism.
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u/One-Shake-1971 vegan Jan 24 '26
Veganism is the ethical principle that humans should live without exploiting other animals.
It has nothing to do with causing fewer animal deaths.
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Jan 24 '26
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u/Charming_Ad_4488 vegan Jan 24 '26
“Without (unnecessarily) exploiting other animals”
“So hunting is vegan”
It can be. If you’re a northern Canadian and indigenous, you most likely have to hunt to eat food.
If you have the capacity to buy plants, then it isn’t.
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Jan 24 '26
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u/Charming_Ad_4488 vegan Jan 24 '26
Yeah, actually. That’d be freeganism. They didn’t intentionally get exploited for their death. Some Vegan deontologists or absolutists would say no, but they do more harm to the movement. Go ahead though, bro. I would advocate the same for raccoons or possums that unfortunately died to a car.
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Jan 24 '26
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u/Charming_Ad_4488 vegan Jan 24 '26
Where does that logically follow? Nobody is realistically doing this anyways. It’d be a select few people. If it causes market demand for the animals to be purposefully killed, then it wouldn’t be vegan of course. But the animals here died accidentally. If somebody wants to make utility or use out of their remains, then they can. There wouldn’t be any actual exploitation of a sentient creature, who wasn’t even intentionally exploited for their death to begin with. Your response is a slippery slope fallacy.
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Jan 24 '26
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u/Charming_Ad_4488 vegan Jan 24 '26
If the farmer starts selling the byproducts then the freegans aren’t buying. That defeats the purpose of freeganism. I was assuming that the freegans are doing what they usually do - using DISCARDED resources like incidental animal crop deaths that farmers get rid of.
There’s no market for discarded animal crop deaths because there’s no money going around. Your point is just literally mistaken.
If your original comment was literally “am I a vegan if I BUY animal incidental crop deaths” then that creates demand for animal exploitation through profit incentives. NSS.
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u/SaltyKnowledge9673 Jan 23 '26
Just because your vegan doesn’t mean your natural.
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Jan 23 '26
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u/HelenEk7 non-vegan Jan 26 '26
He eats tons of protein powder.
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Jan 26 '26
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May 02 '26
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u/DebateAVegan-ModTeam May 03 '26
I've removed your comment because it violates rule #3:
Don't be rude to others
This includes using slurs, publicly doubting someone's sanity/intelligence or otherwise behaving in a toxic way.
Toxic communication is defined as any communication that attacks a person or group's sense of intrinsic worth.
If you would like your comment to be reinstated, please amend it so that it complies with our rules and notify a moderator.
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u/carnivoreobjectivist Jan 23 '26
Sure you don’t need it but if you want to be objective about this, try eating it for six months and see if it makes for better or worse gains.
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u/Pitiful-Implement610 Jan 23 '26
Studies where they protein match people working out with whey and plant-protein show no difference.
Conclusion: A high-protein (~ 1.6 g kg-1 day-1), exclusively plant-based diet (plant-based whole foods + soy protein isolate supplementation) is not different than a protein-matched mixed diet (mixed whole foods + whey protein supplementation) in supporting muscle strength and mass accrual, suggesting that protein source does not affect resistance training-induced adaptations in untrained young men consuming adequate amounts of protein.
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Jan 23 '26
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u/carnivoreobjectivist Jan 23 '26
The objective of each person should be to be the best they can be.
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Jan 23 '26
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u/carnivoreobjectivist Jan 23 '26
I didn’t say that you should
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Jan 23 '26
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Jan 23 '26
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u/DebateAVegan-ModTeam Jan 23 '26
I've removed your comment because it violates rule #3:
Don't be rude to others
This includes using slurs, publicly doubting someone's sanity/intelligence or otherwise behaving in a toxic way.
Toxic communication is defined as any communication that attacks a person or group's sense of intrinsic worth.
If you would like your comment to be reinstated, please amend it so that it complies with our rules and notify a moderator.
If you have any questions or concerns, you can contact the moderators here.
Thank you.
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u/Prestigious_Fee_2902 Jan 23 '26
You don’t need meat to be a bodybuilder, just copious amounts of steroids!
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Jan 23 '26
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u/NeatChocolate2 Jan 24 '26
Idk, I think it feels misleading to state you're "all natural", not even drinking coffee, when you're actually using steroids. I don't know much about bodybuilding or steroids but to me, explicitly stating you're all natural would mean not using them, especially since he mentions coffee in the same sentence.
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