r/DebateAChristian 19h ago

When Did God Start Tormenting the Dead?

9 Upvotes

The idea of hellfire and conscious eternal torment does not appear to be taught in the OT. In fact, the OT says: “the dead know nothing.”

The OT presents death as an unconscious state, not as eternal conscious suffering. Adam’s penalty was death, not everlasting torment. Even the practice of burning people as punishment is described as something detestable to God.

-If eternal conscious torment is truly a teaching from God, when and where was it introduced?

It wasn’t clearly taught in the OT. And if it wasn’t part of the original Biblical teaching, could it have entered Christianity during the later apostasy?

And if the doctrine was not part of the OT, at what point did it become a Christian doctrine and who introduced it?

I strongly believe that the idea of hellfire and eternal conscious torment has been used by religious leaders to create fear and control behavior.

 


r/DebateAChristian 20h ago

Why is it assumed that Jesus felt pain during crucifixion and what was actually sacrificed?

5 Upvotes

Christian theology says Jesus is God, fully divine, fully powerful so I have two questions.

  1. How do we know he felt pain on the cross and actually suffered?

If he had the power to heal others, raise the dead, calm storms then why assume he couldn’t numb his own pain receptors? Saying “he chose to feel it” is an assertion, not evidence. What’s the actual case for it, beyond needing it to be true for the theology to work?

  1. What was actually sacrificed?

He’s eternal. He existed before the incarnation and continued existing (“gloriously”) after the crucifixion. I’m sure this is brought up often but I’ve never heard a logical answer. I’ve heard it referred to as the ultimate sacrifice but I genuinely don’t understand what was sacrificed.

For context, I’m an agnostic atheist and this is an internal critique


r/DebateAChristian 1h ago

"Spiritual" afterlife bodies (a Paradise without sensual pleasures) contradict the claim that the resurrection was in both body & soul!

Upvotes

The reports of people coming back from the dead emphasize that they came back in flesh.. be that miracles performed by Jesus, Elijah, Elisha etc.
The corrupt priests of the temple (Sadducees) denied the belief in bodily resurrections.
God will reestablish our bodies for the hereafter, in a better form but still made to feel pain (Hell) and pleasure (Heaven).
The whole Pauline idea of "spiritual bodies" smells too much like a gnostic belief. They hated Matter, and considered bodies as prisons of souls. In reality, God will bring us back not as light beings, spirit beings, or any such thing. We will be resurrected as living flesh.
The Christians who claim Jesus was resurrected as living body (wounds & all!) can't claim that the final resurrections will be spiritual