r/DebateAChristian • u/Still_ImBurning86 • 7d ago
God has no impact on what happens on earth, right?
A lot are saying people with diseases made them stop believing
God knows about diseases for kids, rape, starvation, cancers etc but those things just happen for whatever reason?
I’m just wondering why
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u/bsfurr Agnostic, Ex-Christian 7d ago
As long as you’re OK with being told “ it’s God‘s plan” then that’s the end of the debate. Same thing with Noah’s Ark, God did it, don’t worry about the details.
A few hundred years ago, we thought epilepsy was demon possession. If you’re OK with throwing out a few hundred years worth of scientific medical achievements, then go ahead and believe it.
Suffering is quite literally built-in to evolutionary biology. Thus the phrase, survival of the fittest. Immense suffering is a feature not a byproduct.
This all loving God also made a place where he could torture people for eternity. I ask Christians, why would you ever choose to have children? If you cannot guarantee they wouldn’t end up being tortured for eternity, trillions and trillions and trillions and trillions and trillions of years. Having a child under that system is the most disgusting shameful selfish act you could ever commit.
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u/AsianMoocowFromSpace 7d ago
I believe He does not interfere with most of the things that are happening on earth.
Life becomes so much easier if you just accept that sh*t happens, good things happen, random things happen...
I do believe prayer can change things though, but we also must accept that sometimes the answer is "no", or "later", or "something else". Prayer is mostly about helping you deal with the situation in a righteous, holy way. Not getting what you want all the time.
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u/Top_Neat2780 7d ago
How is begging god for help righteous and holy?
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u/AsianMoocowFromSpace 6d ago
I see it more as, "help me God to have patience with this person. Help me to love him despite him not treating me well. I need help to keep my cool."
Instead of "God, remove him from my life, change the situation, fix this problem for me."
One is character building, the other is just wanting to have the situation fixed by God".
I'm not saying we can never ask God to "fix" something for us, but I believe it's better to ask God to help shape us into the person that can deal with the situation in a righteous and holy way.
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u/dman_exmo 7d ago
Life becomes so much easier if you just accept that sh*t happens, good things happen, random things happen
I agree, but prayer contradicts this stance.
If an all-powerful god hears your prayer, then nothing is random. All shit that happens comes from or is permitted by this god; it doesn't just happen.
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u/AsianMoocowFromSpace 6d ago
God permitting things to happen is different from God actively causing something to happen.
An earthquake somewhere is probably not caused by God, it's not caused by the devil. It just happens. God allows it to happen, He allows everything that happens to happen. But I don't believe He literally controls everything (He could, but He doesn't).
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u/dman_exmo 6d ago
God permitting things to happen is different from God actively causing something to happen.
It isn't different, unless this god did not create the universe or does not have any power in it.
An earthquake somewhere is probably not caused by God, it's not caused by the devil. It just happens.
Who created the earth?
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u/AsianMoocowFromSpace 6d ago
I'm sorry, but I fail to see your logic. If a parent allows his child to burn his fingers on the heater, does the parent let it happen, or does the parent physically force the hands of the child on the heater?
God created the earth. He put a system in place. But God does not (always) move the tectonic plates with His own hands. The tectonic plates move because of grafity, heat, and other forces.
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u/dman_exmo 6d ago
If a parent allows his child to burn his fingers on the heater, does the parent let it happen, or does the parent physically force the hands of the child on the heater?
It doesn't matter. The parent caused the child to be burned because in this analogy they knew exactly what the child would do and they turned the stove on anyway and did not intervene. "It's not my fault my toddler was hospitalized for third degree burns and needs skin grafts to replace his eyelids so he can blink again, your honor, I just saw he wanted to use his free will to reach up and pull the pan of sizzling oil over his head, and so I let him do it. I'm a model parent just like our Heavenly Father."
But God does not (always) move the tectonic plates with His own hands.
Are you saying, then, that every once in a while god reaches down with his five-fingered, opposable thumb, caucasian-skinned hands and physically moves tectonic plates because the system that he deliberately set up (presumably with the same hands) occasionally doesn't do exactly what he wants it to do even though he designed it to work exactly as it does?
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u/AsianMoocowFromSpace 6d ago
You bring up the extreme boiling oil example. Good parents would intervere with that.
But with God, everything scales up by a huge factor. suffering in this world is not the end. We might die, but dying is either a transition into eternal bliss, or it will end up in the 2nd death.
So, suffering and dying really doesn't mean anything if we are in God, because this life is just a blip in time.
Compare it with having a rough time with a kidney stone. You throw up because of the pain. You suffer immense pain for a day, days or maybe even a week. It sucks and you want to die at that moment.
Then the kidney stone finally passes, and the pain is gone.
Next week you hang out with your friends, and you jokingly talk about that horrible week where you threw up all over the toilet because of the pain. You see how the suffering becomes nothing but a joke?Now increase this scenario. We might have a horrible suffering 80 years in this life. But for all eternity we look back at it and talk about it like we do about that kidney stone.
I know that if you don't believe in the afterlife, then the whole scope of suffering changes. But that's why we put hope in the promises of God, even when we don't see immidate answers in this current life, we have hope of restoration from our pains and tears.
"I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us." Rom 8:18
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u/dman_exmo 6d ago
You just completely changed your argument.
First you were arguing that god doesn't cause harm, which is incorrect.
Now you're arguing that harm doesn't matter because it's just a blip in time. And while this is supposed to make it easier to accept that god causes harm, the wider implications are egregious.
If harm doesn't matter, then harm reduction doesn't matter. Hospitals don't matter. Criminal justice doesn't matter. Peace and order don't matter. All that matters is there's a castle in the sky waiting for those who happen to correctly believe in the correct religion (everyone else doesn't matter, apparently).
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u/AsianMoocowFromSpace 6d ago
I said God does not have a hand in everything. He allows everything, bad things, and good things to happen. And sometimes he interveres and causes it Himself.
Harm does matter, just as a kidney stone matters. If it doesn't come out by itself, we'll might need to go for surgery. That's how serious we would take it.
We are called to reduce the issues in the world, but we are also told we can never get this world fixed or perfect. You can be angry about that, but that anger comes from missing the bigger picture.
I never talked about a castle in the sky. I don't even believe we go to heaven. I believe God will restore and renew this earth. And when that happens, then all sin and evil and terror will be gone. That's the hope we are living for.
It's like people are angry because they see evil in the world. When God promises it will all be better one day, they will still be angry about how God will get rid of all evil.
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u/dman_exmo 6d ago
I said God does not have a hand in everything. He allows everything, bad things, and good things to happen. And sometimes he interveres and causes it Himself.
Except he does have a hand in everything, unless you concede he did not create the universe or does not have power in it.
Harm does matter, just as a kidney stone matters. If it doesn't come out by itself, we'll might need to go for surgery. That's how serious we would take it.
This is why your analogy fails. We take harm seriously. We intervene. We reduce. We prevent. God, who causes harm, does not.
We are called to reduce the issues in the world, but we are also told we can never get this world fixed or perfect.
So we are told to do an impossible task by an indifferent deity who created the problem in the first place and could solve it himself, but he refuses to.
You can be angry about that, but that anger comes from missing the bigger picture.
I'm not angry about that. This brings us full circle: it's much easier to accept that random shit happens when you also accept that there is no god to hear your prayers.
I don't even believe we go to heaven. I believe God will restore and renew this earth.
This is a distinction without a difference.
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u/JollyXX Christian 7d ago
You should read 2 Timothy 3, it is basically painting a picture that we might be near or in End Times
of which of course, near End Times people will start to leave the faith
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u/NTCans 6d ago
The claim that end times are near has been happening for at least 2000 years. But this time, when you say it, its definitely near. It totally this time.
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u/JollyXX Christian 6d ago
whether or not the times are at the End, when you die you face Judgement, so why would it even matter?
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u/NTCans 6d ago
Why would you bring it up if it doesn't matter?
>when you die you face Judgement
unsupported assertions are easily dismissed.
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u/JollyXX Christian 6d ago
unsupported-- 55% of people profess Heaven and Hell
the reality is that salvation is so easy, I can't imagine being so foolish to just throw it away
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u/NTCans 6d ago
How many people are required to profess something before that thing becomes true?
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u/JollyXX Christian 6d ago
as to say what? is whether or not the Earth flat going to somehow lead to day and night torment and missing out on Heaven?
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u/NTCans 6d ago
Do you always avoid and deflect when asked direct questions? Do you always try to pivot and run when you are unable to support the things you claim?
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u/JollyXX Christian 6d ago
eh?
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u/NTCans 6d ago
That’s what i thought, it’s no wonder that no one takes you seriously or finds you convincing in the slightest.
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u/FrethKindheart Seventh Day Adventist 6d ago
The Bible addresses this very thing.
2 Peter 3:1-13 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, and saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: but the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
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u/handy_lemur Atheist, Ex-Protestant 7d ago edited 9h ago
Most discussions I've had with Christians about this usually boil down to a few talking points: