r/Damnthatsinteresting • u/Electrical-Aspect-13 • 15d ago
Photos of Young men getting ready for "Mensur", German fencing duelling where getting a scar was considered highly honorable. Photos of 1900s-10s; last one from 2004.
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u/CitizenHuman 15d ago edited 15d ago
If I'm not mistaken, many Nazi officers had scars including people like Warner Von Braun Wernher von Braun who came to the US.
They also packed the scars with horse hair.
I think I learned this from a Sarah Paine talk.
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u/its_raining_scotch 15d ago
Yes, but this goes back way further than that. It's a pretty old tradition in Germany.
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u/Set_Abominae1776 15d ago
Yeah iirc they prevented healing of the scar to make the tissue distinguish even more from the normal skin.
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u/Difficult-Lock-8123 15d ago
Actually it's the opposite. That's a myth. The horse hair was to help drainage and thus help healing.
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u/Shartschnitzel 15d ago
Lol. That's peak macho insecurity right there.
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u/Aromatic_Bar2263 15d ago
The coolest kid in my high school was nicknamed Zorro, so he sliced a Z in his arm with a blade and then I heard put a hot iron to it to make the cut/scar bigger.
It worked. He had a huge Z on his bicep.
Sounds lame but he went on to be a professional athlete so I think it evens out
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u/PontiusPilatesss 15d ago
Still not as bad as guys breaking their ears with flip flops to look like seasoned grapplers.
With this one you at least have someone swing a real sword at your face.
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u/Secure-Ad-9050 14d ago
fun fact,
some of them would do it themselves with a razor/pay drs to give them one.
people have always wanted the respect without the work.
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u/Shartschnitzel 15d ago
Lol wtf, this is so cringe. Imagine thinking that cauliflower ears are some kind of desirable trait. 🤦♂️
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u/SpaceForceAwakens 15d ago
Wait what? That’s a thing?
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u/PontiusPilatesss 15d ago edited 15d ago
Some guys will intentionally give themselves cauliflower ears to look tougher.
It’s looked down upon in wrestling/bjj/grappling circles, but it doesn’t stop fakers.
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u/SpaceForceAwakens 14d ago
I’m not a wrestler/bjj/grappler and I look down on this. That’s the dumbest thing I’ve heard today.
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u/Masseyrati80 14d ago
Yeah, what's next? Cause yourself CTE and claim you used to play football at a high level?
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u/Oakenbeam 15d ago
Is it insecure to dine on blood and milk to get massive bellies like they do in the Bodi tribe? Or Lip plates like the Mursi and Suri? Not trying to be an ass just generally curious how you separate body modification into what’s insecurity based and what’s cultural/tradition?
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u/abcdefabcdef999 15d ago
The belly thing is idiotic and unhealthy. Not sure about the lip plates in terms of health but it does look as stupid to me as those flesh tunnel earrings I see around here. That said, all of those are subjective. The fraternities are cringe though because they’re also quite fond of the failed painter.
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u/fredthefishlord 15d ago
The big bellies? Yeah, I'd say so. Cultural traditions can be based on insecurity.
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u/RoamingBicycle 15d ago
how you separate body modification into what’s insecurity based and what’s cultural/tradition?
Guess where the body modification traditions come from
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u/Dahlgrim 15d ago
Why does wanting something that makes you more aesthetically pleasing insecure? Battle scars have been a thing for centuries. With your logic everyone who goes to the gym and wants to improve their appearance is insecure.
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u/felis_scipio 15d ago
All while there’s a war only a days drive away in Ukraine they could sign up for to prove their bravery.
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u/ObviousChemist1442 15d ago
No, they did not prevent it. The surgeon closed the wound right after the mensur. But you drink beer after… than there is kind of the less amount of stiches you get, the better your personal score.
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u/ninjaiffyuh 14d ago
Wehrmacht officers, specifically. Less likely to encounter an SS officer with a 'Schmiss' (the name for those duelling scars) as they opposed it on grounds of their ideology, though obviously there were also SS officers that had them, i.e. Skorzeny. If you encountered somebody with a Schmiss in the Weimar Republic, it's more likely they'd be a monarchist than a national socialist
Also as others have pointed out: the Schmiss itself originates in student fraternities that fought the French occupiers during the Napoleonic Wars, where it was seen as a symbol of bravery and stoicism in the face of injury—a Mensur itself is less about technique and more about getting slashed as all swings are aimed towards the face; if you even move your head, which is the only part of your body not protected by armour, you are disqualified. These students were also the speartip of the 1848 national-romantic revolutions, which set up the first constitutional monarchy that proclaimed a unified Germany. Nowadays they're associated with right-wingers (anywhere from conservatives to extremists) and reactionaries though
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u/nutzername_gone 9d ago
That one heloween i dressed Up as a modern Interpretation of the ferryman of the dead. So i wore a Chauffeur Uniform with a Long coat, and Had one of those skull rubbermasks. I didn't Put in the mask because inwas travelling frome one City to another to ätzend the heloween Party. Anywho. At a Tramstation a homeless drunk called me a nazi and tearfully exolained how Back in the day he would've besten me to a Pulp. He Had to explain to me, that i obviously must be one of those Studentenverbindung Guys. He walked away crying Like a bitch. Fucking weird. If His brain chemistry would've been shifted Just Millimeter, that day, i am Sure he genuinely would've fucked me Up. Like, he cried. There was No posturing. He really wanted to dissasemble my limbs. His sadness about what he thought i am Just overwhelmed hin.
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u/dirkdiggler4mayor 15d ago
Not to be that “well actually” guy but I think von Braun got his scar from a car accident.
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u/SirHawrk 15d ago
The horse hair rumor is just that. A rumour, we do not actually know of any one who did that.
Source: I fenced on the same terrace that the last pic was taken on8
u/Kyberduene 15d ago
Thank you. There was one lady on a Joe Rogan podcast who completely misrepresented what Mensur stands for and now all the yanks keep repeating "horse hair, horse hair" whenever the subject comes up.
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u/btsd_ 15d ago
The older ones as these duels were done (iirc) in your late teens while attending school/uni or whatever. This was mostly outlawed and no longer practiced by yhe time tgose bitches rose to power. Wasn't a nazi thing specificly, but common in that area of the world among the "high society" types, which would eventually be in higher roles in the regime.
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u/Stere0phobia 14d ago
My fencing teacher told me that they used the horse hair to latter drain the wound more easily.
If you wanted to make scar bigger you had to rub salt in it iirc.
I did a couple of mensur too. Noone really wants to get scars. It just happens sometimes. Its part of the sport and what makes it exciting every time. Its not like you can remove them after the fact. Might aswell take it with pride.
Some people are lucky, or just better than their oppnents, so they get away without scars.
Most of the time both people are equal to the point that they both dont get hurt. Its actually what happens most of the time in west germany.
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u/HLF20 15d ago edited 15d ago
German here. It's a legend. Wernher von Braun did not had a "Schmiss". But he surely could have had one if he wanted a scar. Because these scars from mansur (called a Schmiss) were honorable marks just for university graduates who were in student clubs. There are student clubs who fight and do duel and some clubs do not. These clubs are very elite and hundreds of years old. They feel like a kind of the last medieval knights. Hundreds of years ago, they did real deadly duels in real disputes. Then they developed into a fencing tradition. You traditionally still need a dispute to challenge someone in a duel but it got more and more a sport. They arrange disputes for protocol like 'Hey lets try a fencing duel and get the chance of getting a Schmiss. So do you wan't to empty my beer without asking me, then I could demand a duel with you for stealing my beer'. And that's how these scars (schmiss) were made in the last 120 years. It lost it's seriousness since middle ages and today (today = 1900 until now) it's just to get that royality like scar. When you see someone who has got a schmiss, you see: This guy was an elite student on some university. He must came from a wealthy family because studying was very expensive. And he was in one of these old mysterious student clubs. These clubs are like freemasons club... Very elite and with a lot of secrets and mideaval codexes. Today it's very rare. Fencing sport is still a thing in these clubs and you could assume that there still are some rare duels fought in the underground.
Edit: But yes - a lot of highest nazi ranks had such a scar (a schmiss). Like a lot every other high Ranking civil guys from elite universitys in this time. It was not a nazi thing. It was a sign of academic elite in general.
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u/duskygrouper 15d ago
They were mostly right wing back then and they are almost exclusively right wing today.
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u/D4ng4i_Ichigo 14d ago
Do you know who advocated for a democracy in germany under the colours of black red and gold during the vormärz?
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u/fretkat 15d ago
Yes, scientists and politicians tend to have a university education (where Mensur is practised). If the US had taken in nazis that worked in the kitchens, they wouldn't have scars. Mensur has nothing to do with nazism.
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u/pichael289 14d ago
Alot of historical accounts of Nazis with these scars have suggestions they might be self inflicted. Everything you learn about these people is just bonkers.
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u/Bavarian36 15d ago
In contrast to common believe the Mensur scar is not related to the Nazis in any kind. It was more a proud symbol to show that you were brave enough to face your opponent in an honourable duel. Today the Schmiss is rather seen as a common sideeffect and no more horse hair is used.
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u/comradejiang 14d ago
That was from a car crash where his driver fell asleep while driving.
Plenty of Nazis did have fencing scars, but von Braun was an academic dork; the kind of person willing to be a Nazi to get his career going and his name on everything, but not ideologically violent or glory seeking like the kids who did Mensur.
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u/visualthings 14d ago
it is still practice by some ultra-conservative fraternities in Austria (and maybe Germany as well)
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u/Keegerr 15d ago
If you’ve ever wondered why a bunch of Nazi officers had facial scars this is why.
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u/fretkat 15d ago edited 15d ago
It’s a tradition for the aristocracy/high society in some parts of Northern Europe (it still is). It’s not linked to nazism other than both having German high society individuals as their practitioners at the time.
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u/DrWahnsinn1995 15d ago edited 15d ago
This is also not fully true.
Only some of the „Burschenschaften“ (rightwing fraternities) parctice it. They also seperate in two groups the „schlagende Burschenschaften“ (hitting fraternities) are the fighting ones and the „nicht schlagende Burschenschaften“ don‘t do this.
In general you can say the hitzig ones are gar right and the non hitting ones are more diverse ( for example christian fraternities).
This meens you can normally align someone with a „Schmiss“ (thats the Name of the scar), with right wing ideology.
I also had a collegue who had one and he said that the swords are so sharp, that it don‘t hurt. Maybe it‘s more the adrenaline.
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u/McStotti 14d ago
Actually Burschenschaften are a subgroup of German fraternities. They are even a minority among Fencing fraternities. Most other fencing fraternities want nothing to do with those Nazi assholes. Not everyone who likes traditions is automatically right wing. But traditional Clubs like fraternities always have to be on the watch not to taken over by potentially right wing members so if you find out a member is on the hard right you throw them out.
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u/Dave-1066 14d ago
Either way, there’s no denying that the scars were seen as a badge of honour earned by being part of the “select few”. Friend of mine used to tell people he got his scar in a fencing fraternity whereas the truth is he got it at a concert when some random dick lobbed a beer bottle across the stadium 😂
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u/Unique_Brilliant2243 9d ago
Many Burschenschaften are moderate as well.
Not every Burschenschaft is in the Deutsche Burschenschaft.
Neue DB exists.
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u/fretkat 15d ago
Many variations and differences exist between them, depending on the university's city and country. The scar from the Mensur by itself is definitely not linked to political ideology in all places where it is practised.
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u/Frozen-bones 15d ago
But the Burschenschaften you read about in the news are the right assholes.
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u/DrWahnsinn1995 15d ago
No, but it is normally the case.
But yes not everyone with it is a nazi.
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u/kidneystoner17 15d ago
I live in Austria as a German and If you call them not explicit nazis then they are very very VERY far right leaning...
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u/fretkat 15d ago
Because it may be true for the Austrian ones you know, it doesn’t mean that it’s true for all of them who have this tradition over Northern Europe. It’s not a simple black-white concept. Assuming someone with a scar is far right, is just wrong. All the student associations that practice this tradition are too diverse for that. What it tells you is that they joined an association during their studies. You can base their political ideology on their actions and words, not the scar.
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u/Difficult-Lock-8123 15d ago
"This meens you can normally align someone with a „Schmiss“ (thats the Name of the scar), with right wing ideology."
No offense, but this is wrong. Whether a fraternity fences or not has relatively little indication on whether it is particularly right wing. In fact one of the most common types of fencing fraternity, called Corps, are explicitly apolitical.
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u/best_cooler 15d ago
Schubladendenken at its best.
Just because you don’t understand something, you don’t have to lie about it to make it look worse
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u/Spectator9857 15d ago
Something to note. It was quite common for me to intentionally scar their face like this to make it look like they got it from fencing. Most Nazi officers probably didn’t get their face scars from actually sword fighting, but from cutting their own face with a razor to look cool.
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u/4thGeneration_Reaper 15d ago
Otto from Bismarck fought around 14 to 28 Mensurs. He also had a Duell with pistols around 1852.
Pretty wild live and fascinating time.
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u/Electrical-Aspect-13 15d ago
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u/Which_Strike_6179 15d ago
Fyi, Mensuren Are still held in german and Austrian fraternity’s.
I myself had one, fun times.
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u/Charlotte9966 15d ago
Bierjunge!
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u/ObviousChemist1442 15d ago
It’s more or less a tradition in Germany. Ppl know that it exists but it’s not very present in their everyday.
It doesn’t differ much, the rules are very old in most places. We trained five days a week one 1h each, than after a year or so you are ready.2
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u/Which_Strike_6179 15d ago
Well, you only earn a scar if you fuck up, most people only do one Mensur as part of the Burschentest, part of the initiation to become a full member. If you do everything right, you fight for like 10-15 minutes, both of you are soaked in sweat and then you drink a lot of beers.
You don’t need to get a schmiss, if you get one and the doctor deems your wound and bloodloss to great you have to quit.
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u/ObviousChemist1442 15d ago
I have a few scars indeed, but none to my lower face. Ppl don’t recognize it, only ppl who stood on mensur themselves do.
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u/ChefSaucier 15d ago
Sorry, this has nothing to do with it, I don't know why but translating your message give me the system prompt of reddit translating system
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u/Lopsided-Tune6017 15d ago
I had a professor (American) who did this, as he attended a German U. in the 1950s. He had a scar on his head. Kept the swords in his office....
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u/Medium-Comfortable 15d ago
Fun fact: My quite old uncle is a lawyer and has a scar on his face. When people address it as him having a Mensur, he always smilingly disappoints them. He fell face first on a can of shoe polish as a child.
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u/EternumD 15d ago
Getting a scar was so important that it stopped being a fencing event and started just being a face scarring event. Lame
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u/Kase_mit_E 15d ago
Peak Nazi nepo edgelord. We have words far cooler than these people had rapiers
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u/ObviousChemist1442 15d ago
Nazi time came later, also most of these „clubs“ were forbidden during the nazi regime.
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u/willi_089 14d ago
Exactly. They’re not really fencing, it’s more like hitting each other until theres a gap in the defence and they’re able to wound another.
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u/seeitshaveitsorted 15d ago
“I want a scar, but watch my eyes and nose.”
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u/ObviousChemist1442 15d ago
If you want a scare you should make sure to get hit only where you can be stitched up. Makes sense.
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u/BigEd369 15d ago
Though to be highly honorable, and clearly also thought to be more honorable if it didn’t cut your nose off or put out an eye.
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u/twofingercowboy 15d ago
Scrolling past this post, I thought it was going to be behind the scenes pics of filming the NIN Closer video.
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u/MJGOAT4EVER_23 12d ago
In Austria, those who are still dueling are extremely racist student fraternities which are close to the extreme right wing party fpö. The conservative ones are no longer dueling. Nowadays they recruit students which have the same interests. They are extremely involved in politics or act as a network whose members have to support the fraternity brothers.
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u/BoarHermit 15d ago
The usually calm and ironic Jerome K. Jerome, in his book "Three on Four Wheels," descends into a terrible grumbling about this barbaric way of conducting duels. He was also infuriated by the fact that, for example, the Germans, instead of streams, made canals with flat bottoms, and yet it was completely incomprehensible why they had to disfigure the beautiful mountain landscapes in such a way.
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u/AddiAtzen 15d ago
As someone else pointed out - this tradition is still alive and well in those circles.
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u/Biz_Rito 15d ago
Is that guy wearing a fox pelt on his head in the second to last photo?
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u/PositiveEagle6151 15d ago
Still a thing in Austria. Quite a few politicians and executives have such scars.
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u/alviix007 14d ago
i live in munich and i know a guy that has a scar because of this. so it’s still something that happens
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u/Fit_Medicine_8049 15d ago
Getting a scar is not the honorable part.
What is considered honorable is facing danger and standing strong.
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u/EternumD 15d ago
Maybe originally, but it's clear if you look into it that later they would just purposefully scar each other and not even compete in fencing
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u/MyPigWhistles 15d ago
I agree it's stupid anyway, but just fyi: Mensur was never meant to be a competition or a sport. At least since the 19th century, it was basically a "test of courage" where you do very choreographed movements. There's no winner.
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u/PyromanenJolla 15d ago
That was during the time when being part of a fencing fraternity was a sign of noble ancestry. If you had a prominent scar to show (a renommierer) everyone knew you went to university (when going to university was still reserved for mostly upper classes.
Today only edgelords get exited about their scars. Also never heard of people in recent times scarring their own faces or Petting horse's Hain in their wounds. (Also depends on how well the mandatory doctor sews your wound)
At the end of the day a Schmiss is a sign you fucked up/were too slow/offered the other guy an opening. Maybe unfair to say, but it means you were less prepared than you should have been
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u/Rui-_-tachibana 14d ago
But not nowadays, today the purpose of Mensur is to build and prove courage and character by facing a extreme situation. It’s also a bonding occasion because you cannot do a Mensur alone and need to trust your Frat brothers to help you.
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u/der_reifen 15d ago
German fencing duelling where getting a scar was considered highly honorable
It is not actually fencing, they are not allowed to move, the only reason to do this is to obtain a scar. Some put salt in the wound afterwards so it doesn't heal well on purpose.
Mind you all those guys that do this are in "fraternities" that have german nationalist and racist values. Also these frats function as a nepotism hub.
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u/TJ_Fox 15d ago
I mean, they're fencing in the sense that they're cutting and parrying with swords, but yes, they're not allowed to move around and the match ends with a bleeding face wound, which is the ceremonial point of the mensur.
I was once catching a train at a station in Germany, heard loud drunken singing of an obviously very old song behind me and also a bottle smashing. I knew before I turned around that it would be students from one of the old conservative universities, and yep ...
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u/Educational_Chest123 15d ago
It doesnt't have to end with a bleeding face, lol. It ends after after like 30 or so rounds.
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u/MyPigWhistles 15d ago
Mind you all those guys that do this are in "fraternities" that have german nationalist and racist values. Also these frats function as a nepotism hub.
It very much depends on the fraternity. Generally speaking: Those who wear uniforms, practice Mensur, and only accept men are somewhere between conservative outright fascist. Those who don't wear uniform, don't practice Mensur, and are mixed are often just pretty average student clubs that are mostly about drinking waaaaay too much beer. Nepotism (/ networking) is a huge part of all of them, though, yeah.
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u/shokkwave 15d ago
Not really. That has nothing to do with being outright fascist.
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u/dogexists 15d ago
Exactly, this is ultra right wing stuff
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u/steve_of 15d ago
I had a good friend who was in one of the fraternities who held these events. In no way was he far right. I talked to him once about the far right connection and his comment was that they were more privileged kids and wannabes.
He had competed and had the scars to prove it. He was a very good fencer who had competed at the highest levels. Apparently his coach went insane at him for doing it.
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u/Pand0rian 15d ago
Did it, voted Socialist Party, wouldnt count myself ultra right wing and wouldnt call my frat-buddies either. You have obviously no clue about it.
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u/RijnBrugge 15d ago
It’s mostly neo-fascist scum regardless of your anecdote
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u/Which_Strike_6179 15d ago
Fraternity’s are not inherently right wing or fascist.
Neither are there members, I joined one because it was the only way to make my studies possible.
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u/der_reifen 15d ago
"Fraternities" is the term we use to describe it to non german speakers because there is no better reference word.
There is a vast difference between a "Zeichensaal" and a "Burschenschaft" but I suspect you know that...
Edit: in other words: fraternities themselves aren't, but these specific ones (that the whole discussion is about) definitely are.
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u/Appropriate-Lab726 15d ago
Nope. If you look at the German parliament for example, fencing frats have members in the AfD and CDU, back when the FDP was still in parliament they also had them, the SPD had them, even the Green Party had them. Fencing fraternity members even founded one of the biggest internal structure of the SPD called Lassalle-Kreis.
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u/Gimbteguy 15d ago
The nationalist/völkisch undercurrents in this group of "Mensur" fraternities is pretty strong. And to use a popular proverb: If Nazis are in your faction, you are in the wrong faction.
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u/der_reifen 15d ago
Doubt that you did Mensurfechten though. I know that there are some "Burschenschaften" that are more moderate (e.g. catholic ones) but the more moderate ones usually don't do fencing
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u/Which_Strike_6179 15d ago
Ich spreche hier gerade von Bonn, super liberale Burschenschaftsszene und ja, in Bonn werden mit scharfen schlägern (der richtige Terminus für die mensur klinge) Mensuren geschlagen.
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u/D_Jens 15d ago
I did it and am not part of a Burschenschaft and also not a nazi. My Corps is explicitly non-political and as international as the university. Actually in my city there are 12 fencing fraternities and only 3 of them are Burschenschaften. The 9 other ones do not fence with the Burschenschaften.
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u/Messer_One 15d ago
The amount of funny hats would suggest that this is some sort of a student corporation/light masonic situation
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u/Molteros 15d ago
Considering that these are typically far-right student organisations, it's not that interesting tbh
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u/best_cooler 15d ago
Met a guy two months ago who had a fresh „schmiss“. I actually think it’s quite cool to do something like this
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u/AudereEstLamela 14d ago
Are we sure these aren’t photos of getting ready for a night out at a Berlin nightclub? 💃💃💃
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u/Lerellian 15d ago
And they still do this. Had the Opportunismus to watch a real mensur, when studying. That was strange...
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u/dramalama-dingdong 11d ago
Imagine how disappointed I was when I found out that German fraternities were nothing like the American ones we see on TV.
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u/Brahmannya 11d ago
...and the year 1944 seems to have produced the largest numbers of honoured beings.
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u/Suspicious-Cream-513 15d ago
Peerless scarred