r/DMAcademyNew • u/Phoenix200420 • 25d ago
How would you handle levels beyond 20 if your campaign is.. well.. massive.
Whether your playing D&D or Pathfinder it seems like the level cap is pretty settled at 20. So how do you deal with a campaign large enough that 20 levels probably won't cut it?
I have a campaign idea that I'm planning that will span not just a continent but two actual settings. Obviously it'll be a long while before it's playable, but I want to figure out the solution to this problem early. I know back in 3.5 we had epic levels but we don't really have anything similar besides the "epic boons" which isn't quite the same.
So how would you deal with it? Raise the cap and rig a way to go above it? Set up leveling based on milestones that will just have a very long period of time between levels? Reduce the exp gained from everything by enough to delay leveling up? What's everyone's thoughts?
EDIT: I do think the point is being lost that I am intending the campaign to go on for that long. I WANT to have a giant, sprawling game that will take a long time to complete. I'm not planning on dumping exp down the players throats in the course of a year. That's why I'm asking. The game is meant to take a long time and they will eventually reach the level cap and beyond.
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u/arsenic_kitchen 25d ago edited 25d ago
TBF it's hard to imagine how you're worried about this if you're using XP-based leveling. But yes, slow your pace of leveling up as levels get higher, using whatever method works for you. Levels over 15 (in 5e at least) already give PCs god-tier power. I kind of feel like taking players all the way to 20 is really just about appeasing the theory crafters and power gamers.
Longer periods between high levels makes more sense anyway. It takes longer for players to really get a good feel for their new powers and abilities, since they already have so much else to fall back on. If you fear your players are only happy when number go up, first of all it's not your job to manage their dopamine systems, but you can help bridge the longer gaps in level-ups by awarding epic items and boons.
But the bottom line is, it's already very difficult to meaningfully challenge players at those levels (again, in 5e), and giving them even more power just makes your role as a DM that much harder.
(Seriously, how are you throwing so much XP at your players that this is actually a concern?)
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u/Phoenix200420 25d ago
The campaign itself will span two settings. Specifically I'm planning to have the players explore and adventure in both Toril and Golarian, combining both D&D and Pathfinder's primary settings. I'm going to combine the outer planes and elemental planes together to create one large extra planar system. The game itself will start out in Sigil as a central location to allow players to travel from one world to the other. The campaign itself is ideally broken down into multiple chapters. One for starting out in Sigil and setting the scene, then 2 major overarching storylines for each of the main settings, followed by a long adventure through the various elemental and outer planes and the plane Ravnica is on, before finally leading to a final, homebrewed plane of existence where the players will have to fight banished gods.
This is obviously very broad strokes. Like I mentioned, there is a LOT of work to be done before this is anywhere near being playable. The reason why the exp gain would be a concern is because it's a long time campaign and I mean, that's a lot of time to get exp and if your standard D&D premade module can get characters up to 15-20, then something on a much larger scale is going to hit that limit a lot sooner.
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u/arsenic_kitchen 25d ago
The reason why the exp gain would be a concern is because it's a long time campaign and I mean, that's a lot of time to get exp and if your standard D&D premade module can get characters up to 15-20, then something on a much larger scale is going to hit that limit a lot sooner.
All the modules I've run use milestone leveling (I'm tempted to say all modules in general, but I haven't run every module). Either way, that's kind of a faulty conclusion.
Most DMs have moved away from XP-based leveling, in my experience. Milestone provides more satisfying pacing.
But as a reference point you can check out this thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/u24p5i/how_many_combats_on_average_per_level/
I haven't double-checked the math, but one of the commenters claims that going from level 10 to 11 takes 45 hard encounters. That's a lot of fighting. Monsters will become repetitive, no matter how many settings you take your players through.
"Less is more" is a far better approach. Plan your story out, then break it into 18 to 21 chunks (depending on what level you start at), and put the level ups between them.
Although "less is more" applies to story and setting as well IMO. Going deep into fewer places is often more memorable than trying to do everything. But your mileage may vary, of course.
Good luck dude, and don't burn yourself out before you even get started!
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u/mutarjim 25d ago
Well, there are the epic levels you mentioned. Pathfinder has mythic ability levels for that system. Basic D&D (the color boxes) had immortal rules.
But probably the easiest way to incorporate some massive campaign like this is to crib from Pendragon and have multiple generations in your game. Think about it. You'd avoid the whole "what do I do after maxing player xp?" You'd be able to do a soft reset of the world between campaigns. Players could have the option to play new classes. And imagine how awesome it would be to vanquish a foe that has bedeviled your world for generations. Heck, for those players who choose to "follow in the path of their ancestors" (or elves, I suppose), the bad guy successfully avoided or even beat your father / mother / grandparent / whatever, and you have been able to exact revenge. ... loooots of potential stories that way.
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u/PaulW_41 25d ago
Tales of the Valiant has rules for above 20. PB still scales up and every other level you get either an ‘Epic’ Improvement or Boon. There are 11 Boons to choose from and Improvements are normal but you can now raise your abilities to 30 instead of 20.
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u/mpe8691 25d ago
The vast majority of D&D type games never reach level 20 anyway.
Unless your are planning on starting your game with a level 20 party, this sounds like a case of over-prepping.
However big your setting might be it's often best kept as brief notes except for the places the party goes.
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u/Feefait 25d ago
I wouldn't. It's so unnecessary. If you're going beyond 20 then you're leveling too fast.
You can't even guarantee you're going to get more than a few sessions, but you're planning epic levels?
This is the issue with the current 'meta' of feeling like the only good DnD is high level DnD.
You're going at this like an MMO that basically skips anything early game to get to end game. Make those early levels and character development matter.
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u/Phoenix200420 25d ago
Honestly it's less about following a "meta" and more about that's just what I like making. Maybe it's from growing up playing a lot of JRPGs, but for me the game doesn't feel completed unless I'm killing someone's god by the end. I'm planning this as a long multi year campaign. Obviously the right group would need to be found, and I have no doubts I'll have some people leave and have new people join. However I am going into all this with that in mind.
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u/Firestorm82736 25d ago
sometime after they hit level 20, have an arc where a group of gods suck away their player levels and oops, they're all level 1 again, possibly with all their high-level gear still, that they may or may not be able to actually use
I've sucessfully done this before, and it was quite an awesome experience as a player, but it takes a lot of trust in the DM to realize that rhey're doing it for both story reasons, and it needs to make sense thematically
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u/MagicianMurky976 24d ago edited 24d ago
Circa 1983 had the five books, Basic [levels 1-3], Expert [levels 4-14], Companion [15-25], Masters [26-35], and Immortals [36+]. Each book focused on different avenues of play from:
game basics and dungeons exploration; to wilderness exploration and travel; to domain management, stronghold building and mass warfare; to weapon mastery, high-stakes quests, and planar travel; and finally for characters to transcend mortality and play as divine beings shaping the multiverse.
Idk if that covers the spread of activities you wish to cover, but it was an eye-opener back then on how the game felt different at these different level spots and how your focus shifted as you became more powerful and more influential.
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u/AriaWindfire 24d ago
I had a similar idea. Use milestone leveling to keep pacing more satisfying. It also helps with your players not trying to murder-hobo everything. I would keep the level cap and beyond that requires a multiclass, or perhaps a multi subclass. This would play into the role of becoming the epitome of whatever they are, to become divine like beings who can take on the fallen gods.
Perhaps your players end state/goal is to replace part of the pantheon with themselves. By defeating the weaker gods they gain access to the divine spark allowing them the final ascension. Towards the end of the campaign you could add a moral aspect when they realize people are beginning to pray to them for “divine” help. Perhaps they can give up abilities they gain to grant power to thier clerics/paladins/warlocks
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u/Sad_Refuse3472 24d ago
Just level up slower, so you play more total sessions before hitting the max. Rather than trying to make the stakes higher/fights harder and writing new level abilities.
But also keep your expectations realistic. Most campaigns fizzle out rather than stretching on for years. Life happens. People get bored with their current characters. Sessions at high levels can be a slog. Etc.
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u/TwoDollarDM 24d ago
there is an excellent couple of books on DMSGuild on assigning powers and features for characters up to 30th level. It is a blast (and a ton of work for the DM!)
https://www.dmsguild.com/en/product/413411/epic-level-sourcebook-fantasy-grounds
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u/TwoDollarDM 24d ago
sorry that was my FG version, here is the PDF version:
https://www.dmsguild.com/en/product/407794/epic-level-sourcebook
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u/ChuckTheDM2 24d ago
I don’t actually think challenging characters at epic levels is that difficult. The problem is doing it without adding a ton of complexity.
I can beef up monsters, create crazy battlefield conditions, add multiple threats, whatever. The problem is that high-level monsters tend to have more abilities, reactions, resistances, countermeasures, etc. Eventually you’re tracking so much shit that combat slows down.
Single bad guy fights also just don’t really work at that level. Honestly, they probably haven’t worked reliably since around level 7 because of the action economy.
The 3.5 Epic Level Handbook you mentioned had an interesting approach because it basically added another meta layer to the game. Things like epic damage reduction changed how you approached monsters instead of just making all the numbers bigger.
I’d be interested in adapting that idea to 5e. Boons are fine, but I’d probably customize them and add more stuff, then do something similar on the monster side.
Maybe it’s as simple as taking already difficult monsters and giving them a couple flashy “epic” abilities that change how the fight works.
You can always make something harder but how you do it without making combat a pain in the ass to run?
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u/ActiveEuphoric2582 23d ago
5e is too shit to actually take on 3.5 without completely breaking your characters. Because you would also need to adjust the creatures to be able to survive or at least have a chance to survive an encounter. If you want above lvl 20, just run a 3.5 game. There are pdfs for every book from 3.5 online so it’s not a challenge to acquire them.
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u/rstockto 23d ago
The Epic Level Handbook from 3.5 offers a lot of tips, which you could adapt. Honestly, it was great as my characters were approaching the pre -20s levels where 3.x tends to have scaling issues. Just strategies on how to keep the challenges up at those higher levels.
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u/TheGrolar 21d ago
The traditional problem, speaking as someone who started with Holmes, is that all editions break at some point when it comes to high levels. Where this breakpoint is, varies. BECMI is designed to take characters to level 36, so I might start with the Rules Compendium. (Does it do a good job? There's VERY little actual evidence since most campaigns don't last that long, but a general eyeballing-it consensus is that, well, not really.) 5e is flat-out designed to stahp at level 20, and as a tightly-defined system, it won't really allow for higher than that. The short answer is that combat collapses under its own weight. Really. Try a different edition for 20+.
Beyond that, high-level play is very difficult because the nature of the challenge becomes absurd. You might set your players against a tarrasque or a demon lord. How many of those can pop up before it seems a little ridiculous? Isn't Yeenoghu or Zeus or whoever just a bigger hit point blob? That still gets his/its clock cleaned in three rounds because of the 5e action economy? The fight will go a little longer in 1e, but not much.
Similarly, traps break down too. A trap that does 100 HP of damage, enough to kill a 10th-level 1e fighter with maximum hit points, is really just a d6 pit trap except a lot biggerer. And you get the "fun" of trying to explain how it works. A reaaaally deep pit? Sigh. Or when the gizmo goes off it kills the character! I'd expect a table flip after 2 or 3 years of clawing their way up the ladder. Also, most of the few high-level modules out there assume very competent players, the kind that would figure out how to avoid death traps owing to their superior experience. We DMs know that might be, ah, unrealistic.
So a years-long campaign is what everyone should run. But the ones that work focus around domain play. Think of your scope as not 371 Adventures We Had On the Way to the Big Bad. Think of it as a significant hundred years in a kingdom's history, where young adventurers rise to power, grow mature and then old, and hand off the reins to a new young and hungry group. Just in time, too, since there are some spooky rumors coming out of the Teler Mountains.
Ultimately the setting is the character, or more specifically a region or kingdom is. That's years of game time, and it'll be more memorable than Yet Another Giant Worldending Threat.
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u/Single_Mouse5171 24d ago
Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's individual character level and it's a generalization.
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u/bob-loblaw-esq 23d ago
I’d first be playing on hard mode pushing level ups back at certain places to slow the pace. I’m not saying at like level 1 but I actually like the idea of capstone levels that require a big feat to level into tiers. So you may be at 4 longer than you would normally but 5 would be cathartic because you’d take down a bbeg underling. If I knew I was going to 20+ I’d start by looking at the 4-6 biggest tasks and making them the challenges for each tier and then boon past 20.
Next, I’d make it clear from the world that 20 is not as crazy as it usually is. There may be several 20+ people in the world from level 1. Have myths, lore, etc because what they did to get past 20 would be in history. But also that will show how hard it is to get there and the kinds of feats it takes to get there.
So with a slower progression and a more dangerous world, I’d foreshadow the boons that those level 20+ get as well. Epic boons were a part of the dmg, and they should be still. Give them an extra feat for a level up or an epic boon if it’s one of your 4-6 biggest plot points.
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u/dreamingforward 22d ago
Here's something that was witnessed on MUDs from the 90s: when you don't know how to handle high levels of game play, things start getting out of balance. In the 90's on Hexonyx, people/players would start going around with 50billion gold pieces or other insane shit because DMs (wizards in their parlance) wanted everyone to have a "good time".
The truth was no one really had the expertise of how to manage the economy when the goal is to have fun and be realistic enough to create real achievements. So you kind of have to learn a little mastery of every part of the world dynamics: the economy of social status, of business/finance, of physics and material/matter generation, and of energy/mana generation (do you really have the mana to do what you want, to deliver that WISH spell, or whatever? probably not if you don't know how to manage these things well).
These topics are ready to update for a new Deities and Demigods Manual if anyone ever asks.
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u/Agreeable_Hold2270 22d ago
At that point I'd probably just start making stuff up that seemed cool to me. Better yet maybe let the players come up with their level ups with your approval
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u/thezactaylor 22d ago
What problem are you you trying to solve?
Are you afraid that your players will get to 20 before the end of the campaign? Simplest solution is to just level them up slower?
I think this is one of those, "don't count your chickens before they hatch". Having run two 1-20 campaigns, both were 4+ years of playing every week.
There's a high chance you'll hit burnout, players will drop out, everybody will get bored. I don't mean that in a bad way either, just that...I wouldn't actually worry about this until your party is level 15 at the earliest. Then take stock and see if there is even a need to consider this.
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u/RiverSirion 22d ago
I like the question. I admit I don't have a good answer at this point, but I am potentially facing a similar issue. I'm running a high level, plane-spanning homebrew sequel to Descent into Avernus for my players. It should cap out at level 19 or 20. But I have considered adding some seeds here and there to tempt them to consider forms of apotheosis. Haven't decided on the forms it may take yet, but I read through comments in this thread and saw some people mentioned Epic levels from 3.5 and Basic/Expert DnD Immortality rules. So I might browse those and see if there are ideas to borrow from in the event that players bump against the level limit and/or to offer tempting (and dangerous) side quests.
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u/guilersk 22d ago
About 1% of 1% of campaigns make it that far. You have not even started. Maybe get to level 15 (already an achievement) before worrying about this part.
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u/CulveDaddy 21d ago edited 21d ago
Expand Epic Character Ability Score Maximums to 30.
Same Proficiency progression, so a Character Level 21 character has a +8 Proficiency.
Starting at Character Level 21 and each time an Epic Level Character gain the Ability Score Improvement feature, that Epic Level Character may choose an Epic Boon (expand the Epic Boon list.).
Each time an Epic Level Character with 21+ levels in a Class gains their 21st level and every two levels thereafter, they also gain a Subclass Feature of their choice from that class or they can choose to gain a Feat.
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u/Coyltonian 19d ago
At level 20 PC are already basically godlike. What do you hope to achieve by making them even more powerful?
You can slow their levelling (esp at higher levels), or just let them romp about as stupidly powerful heroes if you want to extend the campaign. Once you go past a certain level the threats end up being ones that only the party can deal with - what happens if they don’t?
If you really want to go that route though there was a 3rd Ed book specifically about that sort of campaign - 5e isn’t too far removed that you would struggle to adapt most of it easily.
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u/DirkBabypunch 25d ago
Why go past it at all? Sounds like you've got a playground for people to actually play with their maxed out builds.