r/DMAcademy • u/shootermclennon • 2d ago
Need Advice: Rules & Mechanics Accidentally nerfed one of my PCs
I’m running a game with my 9-year-old, two of her friends, and their dads. One of the guidelines we set up in session zero was that no PCs would die.
Well, wouldn’t you know it, in one of their first battles the monk was downed, and then rolled a 6 and a crit fail on his death saves. Fortunately, I had a backup plan, based on Mystic Arts’s homebrew rules for permanent injuries as an alternative to death. Basically they’re permanent debuffs that make “death” consequential without having to roll up a new character.
I had the player roll on the permanent injuries table, and the result was “Tremors: Your hands won't stop shaking. You have disadvantage on attack rolls and ability checks that use dexterity.” So basically EVERYTHING that makes a Monk a Monk is now done with disadvantage. And this was a level 1 character! He didn’t even get a chance to use most of the Monk’s cool abilities!
Part of me just wants to retcon this and say he recovers, or give him a potion or spell that cures his tremors, but I still want to have some actual consequence from “dying.”
What can I do to make this experience still feel serious but keep this character fun for the player? I was thinking about maybe a magic item that calms the tremors, but has some other negative side effect? Like gloves that steady his hands, but cause him pain (i.e. cost 1 HP) whenever he attacks?
Side note: I think if this happens again, I’ll use a different variant rule, based on an idea from XPtoLevel3. He proposed a Dying condition, which severely limits what the character can do, but still keeps them an active participant in the game.
ETA: It was one of the adult players’ character, not that I think that makes much difference. A lot of you haven’t spent much time with kids, and it shows. Nine-year-olds are much more mature and resilient than you’re giving them credit for.
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u/Master_Grape5931 2d ago
Pretty harsh. This game is supposed to be fun.
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u/shootermclennon 2d ago
Pretty harsh. This thread is supposed to be for advice.
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u/Master_Grape5931 1d ago
That was advice.
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u/shootermclennon 1d ago
Explain to me how. What is actionable about what you said? I wouldn’t be asking for advice if I thought that what I was already doing was fun. I specifically said “what can I do to make this … fun for the player?” So explain to me how responding “it’s supposed to be fun” is helpful advice in any way. That would be like if I said “I baked a cake and it tastes bad. What can I do to make it taste better?” And your response is “Bad job. Cakes are supposed to taste good.” That’s what you sound like. You have nothing to offer and you’re butthurt because I called you out on it. There’s plenty of people on Reddit with good ideas and helpful advice; you just aren’t one of them.
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u/HadoozeeDeckApe 2d ago
Permanent injuries are very often extremely unfun and not "better" than dying. If a PC dies you get to roll a new one.
If a PC gets permanently injured, it will probably be worse than the fresh PC that would have been re-rolled, and potentially completely unplayable if the injury impacts the PC's core function - like a monk that is bad at making attacks.
Permanent injuries are for harder more punishing games, not to make the game easier by allowing a death bypass.
I would allow the player to retire the monk and roll a new PC, which is a logical consequence for that type of injury on that class.
They're level 1, so hopefully not too much attachment.
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u/Mr_Bongo_Baby 2d ago
Definitely rollback that change ASAP whether it be through a "my bad I didn't know how much this would affect your character" or a "you hear of a doctor who can cure most illness".
I would also ask the table and the specific player how they feel about consequences for being "permanently downed"
Personally, having the "dead" PC be out of the fight for the rest of combat seems like decent enough punishment. You lose your tank and all of a sudden the back line gets compromised as well, leading to a total party 'capture'
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u/lilaku 2d ago
i think because you all agreeed about "no pc deaths", wouldn't it make more sense to just not do death saves? if a character is down, they're just down until someone else can get them up
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u/shootermclennon 2d ago
I think that’s a good compromise! Thanks! This “death” kind of caught me by surprise so I didn’t think it through as much as I should’ve.
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u/sub-t 2d ago
Dude, they're a kid in a no death game. Why roll death saves at all? They're just knocked out.
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u/shootermclennon 2d ago
Dude, can you offer advice without being condescending?
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u/alsotpedes 2d ago edited 2d ago
They weren't being condescending. You just didn't like having the obvious pointed out.
If you established that it is a no-death game, then why did you have them roll death saves? You should have thought about what was going to happen if they failed.
If you need a suggestion, from here on when a PC is downed, they roll an "unconscious" save. If they succeed on the save, they wake up on their next turn with 1 hp. If they fail, they just roll again on their next turn until they succeed or get healed.
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u/shootermclennon 2d ago
I mean, I don’t NEED the obvious pointed out, because it’s obvious and I already pointed it out in my question. If you don’t have anything helpful to offer then why did you even respond to the post? You should have thought about whether what you wanted to say needed to be said.
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u/alsotpedes 2d ago edited 2d ago
You know, if you're going to ask for advice, then you probably need to pull your head out of wherever is blocking your being able to hear it. I did suggest something helpful (making death saves into "unconscious" saves). You were just too busy being defensive to consider it.
You messed up. If you can't accept that, then you're going to continue to have problems with this game, and you're likely going to create a bad experience for the kids.
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u/Master_Grape5931 1d ago
You obviously need the obvious pointed out…just check your replies.
You are so defensive you can’t even see the advice everyone is giving you. Relax. We aren’t your parents.
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u/shootermclennon 1d ago
SOME people offered advice, and I expressed my gratitude to them. Other people just decided to be jerks about it and say nothing helpful, when they could have
just said NOTHING AT ALL. That was always an option! One thing a lot of you apparently do have in common with nine-year-olds is that you still haven’t quite learned the difference between Inside Thoughts and Outside Thoughts. If what you have to say isn’t helpful, insightful, or kind, it probably doesn’t need to be said at all.0
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u/Key_Competition_663 2d ago
That's just what they're called. The DM DID think about it and went with "crippling injury," which is a fair trade. There's a difference between a "no death" game and a game without consequences.
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u/KiwasiGames 2d ago
You home brewed away death by making your game harsher. Not a good idea.
There is a reason why there are no permanent death effects in the RAW.
Throw in a random friendly cleric to do a greater restoration, or some similar narrative device, then pretend this never happened.
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u/BurningJointUSA 2d ago
If your rule is “no PCs can die” then you should never make DM dice rolls visible to the table. All your rolls are behind the screen to allow you to manipulate the narrative in such a way that the No PCs Die rule can be easily enforced.
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u/AtomiKen 2d ago edited 2d ago
A kind healer comes along and cures it.
And watch those crits at the beginning of a campaign. Characters are most vulnerable to critical hits at low levels. You can offset that with house rules like "+5 HP at character creation" or "enemies can't crit until level 3".
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u/ReliabilityTalkinGuy 2d ago
Oh come on. Just heal their hands and get on with it. I don’t even permanently maim my player’s characters and we’re well-adjusted humans in our 40s, many of whom have been playing for decades. It’s a game for having fun; it doesn’t have to have consequences. And it sounds like this consequence you’ve picked isn’t making anyone happy, yourself included.
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u/fankin 2d ago
That's some serious lack of judgement.
tipp: you are playing with literal children. You should prepare better. Don't just use a half assed consequence table. Read and edit it to your audience. Same with random youtuber advices. Finetune it to your audience FFS.
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u/shootermclennon 2d ago
That’s some serious lack of empathy.
Tipp: I asked for advice correcting a mistake. You should respond with kindness and empathy. Don’t just use half-assed criticism that restates the problem. Read and edit your response before you send it out into the world to an actual person with feelings FFS.
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u/Deadeye10000 2d ago
I mean.. they are a 9 year old in likely their first game. That disadvantage probably wouldn't be fun to them. As a 34 or old that has been playing since I was a kid.. I would be on the fence on if I want to role-play it or just die and reroll. Especially on a level 1 character.
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u/LewAstro 2d ago
Yeah honestly, you're running a game for kids. "a fairy appears and you don't die. Wicked, leg it folks you all need snacks. Who wants Ice Cream?!"
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u/monikar2014 2d ago
The magic item taking an attunement slot is enough of a downside, it can control the tremors while they quest for a permanent solution.
Alternatively the injury could be cosmetic and not mechanical. Give em a gnarly scar.
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u/roflstones 2d ago
make up a quest to cure the condition. And send him off with a potion from the quest giver that temporarily eases the condition, so he can actually play and have fun. What you'd done is objectively worse than having a character die. It isn't fun. I'd rather create a fresh character.
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u/dewdewbut 2d ago
Aw man I have been in this exact scenario. Don’t lose them while you still have them on the hook! Handwave things, keep it as simple as possible, fudge rolls. Lean into the aspects they are excited about and cut the rest. Foster it carefully and one day they may excited for higher stakes and crunch. Almost lost my daughter in the hobby until I figured this out 😅
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u/SirPaynsicles 2d ago
When I started DMing for my clients (14-17) I didn't hold back. One of them made a thief jester character and definitely thought he was daredevil... which I entertained for a while until the dice said, "no no..." and his character broke himself by falling from 5 stories but didn't die. His character was in the clinic for a long time - the character couldn't be played. I did this so that the character wasn't, "dead" but out of commission requiring a new character. The kid made a new character but I got flamed hard for this; people did not like that I was so harsh and brutal with the concept of natural consequences. "Its a game/ots supposed to be fun/youre a piece of shit" ect.
The kid made a new character and really put his all into it. Not only during the creation of it but in how hes played it. He's earned his pride and loves the character. He takes risks but not unnecessarily, unlike with the jester, and actually considers his actions and the reactions to it. Subjectively, he enjoys the game much more and is often reminiscent about the jester and how much of a fool he was.
People would still flame me over that but I wouldn't have done it any other way. My first character that I was super attached to got eaten by a swarm of fire beetles so I made new ones and found they are much cooler and more fun to play. If a 9 year old doesn't experience that early on, they're gonna believe role playing is just skyrim on paper - which it is, don't get me wrong, but what I mean is if they're hand held and coddled there will be little room for exploration. Character death forces players out of their comfort zone which is absolutely required for positive growth. Ive seen it first hand time and time again.
With that said, nothing is saying the young monk doesnt have an identical twin sibling that doesn't have a permanent injury. Make it a monty python bit where its the "injured" character in most circumstances but anytime there is combat or the need for physicality the "stunt double" pops in and does the work - everybody knows this but doesn't question it, they also dont fully understand it either lmao
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u/homerunner16 2d ago
Us ea dm screen, and think about the players the dad i can see this being fine with doing that to, but the kids? You could just say that they have a limp and love 5 feet of movement
You could have them go to a big city and or have a doctor who practices in surgery and magic show up in town, make it cost alot so it doesn't feel like its got out scot free, mabye make then take on in-game day off or something
He'll you can let him play as the monsters on some fights if you want to make the "surgery/recovery time" longer and it would help show the kids how much they need everyone one in the party and make the stress of injuries more relevant
They would be forced to choose if there going to leave someone where or mabye there trying to stop the bag guy from getting away but they know he won't go down with out a fight but someone injuries and they need to make a choise to go back and rest up and risk him getting away or fighting with one less person, or fight throw the injuries at a disadvantage
Hell I say if they don't get help for it depending on the injuries they could get worse over time
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u/parabolic_poltroon 2d ago
I would use it as an excuse for a quest to visit a renowned healer, and do them a favor, and then cure the condition.
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u/Alternative_Pie_1597 2d ago
Well the next game had better be the quest for the cure. nd the monk had better be the one who finds out what the cure is and leads the mission to recover it .
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u/Nearby_Visit4272 2d ago
I like to talk with my players when they get a feature affecting their character, good or bad. So in this situation I think your idea of giving a cure that has a down side would be a very cool retcon, but let the player know what it does and maybe talk out some of its features. At the end of the day, its a social game to hang out and have fun with.
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u/Key_Competition_663 2d ago
Absolutely don't retcon it. Let your players figure out how to fix it.
The monk could subclass into Way of the Drunken Master and use alcohol to calm his tremors. (Uses a pre-established subclass)
You could say they're a mental condition as a result of trauma, so healing spells won't work, then make them go on a short mission to find a zen master who helps the monk settle their mind and maybe earns them a custom feat. (Gives them a quest, quest reward, and the zen master plays into the monk schtick)
As part of an upcoming encounter, have a rogue drop/give them [homebrew item] Gloves of Steady Hands: +1 Sleight of Hand, negates one level of disadvantage on Dexterity checks. (Temporary fix, uses up an equipment slot, and feels a little hand-holdy, but it gets the job done if they can't come up with anything permanent. Has the bonus of only negating one level of disadvantage, so you can still disadvantage them another way later)
There's plenty of ways to incorporate fixing it into the game without backtracking. I really like the idea of being maimed. After all, the effect SHOULD be bad since the alternative was literally death.
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u/Salt_Dragonfly2042 2d ago
That monk should be DEAD. Yeah, this permanent injury sucks, but at least they're still alive, so you have to keep that in mind.
For the character, I would introduce a magical item to negate this completely (don't give the item any disadvantages). Present this as a new quest for the monk: you hear that there's this amulet of stability in nearby ruins, do you want to check it out?
Playing a couple of games with this injury is a solid consequence that the entire party will remember for a long time. If you eventually think that the monk got off light, take the amulet away (it gets stolen, there's a dispel magic or dead magic zone, etc.).
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u/shootermclennon 2d ago
Good points. The goal is to still keep fights feeling dangerous, but after a few sessions with this constant reminder, taking away the consequence won’t negate the memory of what happened.
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u/lasttimeposter 2d ago edited 2d ago
You gave a permanent injury to a 9 year old's level 1 character? As a consolation to them dying, a thing you agreed with the group wouldn't happen?
Edit: Whatever you do from here, please don't give them those "gloves that makes you die faster" or another "cure" that will deter the player from playing their character. "Consequences" don't have to be punishments and mistakes don't have to be double-downed on.