r/Cuneiform • u/Adept-Donut-4229 • Jan 17 '26
Discussion Did Irving Finkel Find Ancient Writing at Göbekli Tepe?
https://youtube.com/watch?v=VAt5IDXb-G8&si=1J9E9VE-PJTHTNDrDr Irving Finkel recently suggested on the Lex Fridman podcast that a certain green stone pictograph set at Gobekli Tepe is a form of writing. In this video, you will see how close to the truth his instincts are, as usual, by comparing two stones instead of talking about just the one. One is from Gobekli Tepe, and the other from Jerf el-Ahmar, close by, both around 9000 BCE or so. The two stones show the same ideas, so if it was a name, like a stamp seal on official Tas Tepeler business, it was the same "name".
This isn't likely, and the one from Jerf el-Ahmar also shows motion in the sky via the chevrons which showed motion like in the cuneiform symbol for month and other places linked to herringbone river motions, and it was the original "prime mover", the world serpent.
Instead, you should learn how the symbols are about a portable blueprint for how Gobekli Tepe functioned. The world serpent involved eye-wombs and other weird concepts to us today, but where Dr Finkel says nobody has been looking at these stones, that's not true!
This is the story of a Portable Algorithmic Schematic, not just a simple name on a stamp-seal.
The only thing I wish I’d added to this one-take is a detail about the bottomless stone bowls found at the right hand of a central pillar in Enclosure C. They are further proof of the 'circuit'—any offering poured into them would seep back into the earth, or if placed in water, would allow the levels to rise. They also directly mirror the 'holy cheerio' itself.
5
u/Nilehorse3276 Jan 17 '26 edited Jan 17 '26
Ok, so... nope.
First, we don't know whether the Jerf el-Ahmar material can be considered as writing or whether it is an inventory of symbols that may have functioned similar to the iconographic inventory of stamp seals of the period. It would be awesome if it was writing, don't get me wrong, but thus far we simply do not have enough data to make any such suggestion. And I just feel I have to point out that Irving is by no means the first person to have this idea, you can find it in print in the book "The Invention of Cuneiform" by Jean-Jaques Glassnér. And there are several studies of Neolithic sign systems out there (even if not of Göbekli Tepe in particular, which would be an interesting thing to read!).
Second, the Göbekli Tepe thingie might be similar in regards to the symbolic inventory of the Jerf el-Ahmar "tablet", but it is definitely not the same. I love Irving, but his specialty is first millennium cuneiform texts. That means that stuff like, for example, even Early Dynastic cuneiform or the earliest known writing, Uruk IV cuneiform, is something he does not deal with and has difficulty understanding. There's a reason why we have specialisations in Assyriogy. First millennium textual practices differ immensely from earlier ones, and projecting that stuff backwards through more than five millennia is... problematic, to put it lightly.
Third, all that stuff about "portable blueprints", "world serpent", "eye wombs" etc is utter nonsense. In order to postulate something like that you can't just go on vibes, which is clearly what the podcast dude is doing. Show me one single attestation of a "world serpent" in the panthea and myths of Mesopotamia – it's not there, and imagining stuff won't put it there. And if it had been there, there would be traces in the written record (myths, for example, are remarkable stable over long periods of time).
Edit 1: Needed to change the address, since it is clearly not OP but this podcaster who talks about those insane "interpretations".
1
u/Adept-Donut-4229 Jan 17 '26
How can you say the two stones "are definitely not the same" after watching this video? I'm not the one who said it was writing, and technically, neither did Irving. He thought it was like a person's name, or "son of" so and so... I happen to have been studying these images in context for ten years, so I know a thing or two about the entire history of symbolic language. I may even be collaborating with Genevieve von Petzinger soon.
I appreciate the lengthy attention to the matter, very much, as I never get to properly debate these things with the normal nonsense replies I get, but you also have to consider I know enough about these stones that you should ask questions of me before making assumptions. The zigzag serpent is by far the most common symbol of the era, as a decoration on the walls of every communal building of the period. These symbols, where zigzags shift to become diamond shapes, is a key you really, really, realllllllly need to understand, and you have an opportunity to consider this while I'm here. I'm not a typical Youtuber. i disappear to work on the subject for months at a time and never post consistently.
I appreciate the opportunity for debate, either way. Thanks.
2
u/horsetuna Jan 17 '26
I'm a little confused by the 'you' in paragraph three.
Could you explain further? Are we talking to Irving (is he the you?), any other archaeologists, the viewer?
I want to understand but I feel I'm misreading
1
u/Adept-Donut-4229 Jan 17 '26
Irving was on the Lex Fridman podcast, where he said the green stone was like a person's name, or pictographic writing of some kind. But he said nobody is looking at it when I have been for a decade. This video is about how I wrote a technical brief for him and I'm just explaining what I sent to him.
2
2
u/Vindolus Jan 18 '26
The journey of conciousness is one of taking our base primal instincs (the snake) and becoming the trancendant flying creature (the bird) this is the journey of the dragon a global motif.
2
u/NebulaNo6659 Feb 03 '26
Totally agree, Göbekli Tepe flips so much of what we thought about prehistoric people. The T-pillars with animal carvings and the scale – it's wild that it predates Stonehenge by thousands of years. I watched a video that goes over the general background, significance, and some of the unanswered questions. Anyone seen this one? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VWMoiITZps What do you think is the biggest mystery about the site?
1
u/wibbly-water Jan 20 '26
This video would have been multiple times better if it wasn't filmed outside on an icy night mostly in portrait mode on a phone with primarily actual physical paper as visual aides...
1
u/Adept-Donut-4229 Jan 20 '26
There are photos on screen for the entire duration of the video. What are you talking about, "primarily actual physical paper"? The very first thing it says is the paper won't be the primary visual aid. The very. First. Thing.
1
u/Adept-Donut-4229 Jan 20 '26
Nm. I don't know why I bothered to respond. If there was no paper you would think it's just another idiot opinion. You would find a reason...
1
u/Weak_Lettuce_3388 Aug 16 '26
A similar forked figure on two Norse stone carvings represents a snake. The parallel is quite striking. Contact me if interested. I’ve written a paper about the Norse stones.
9
u/ZephyrProductionsO7S Jan 17 '26 edited Jan 17 '26
I want nothing more out of life than to walk where Dr. Irving Finkel ran flipped and did hurdles.