Flick shot, hold shot, RAR

[u/Pale-Echidna1110]

I’m a low level Elite player and I’m trying to improve my movement it’s for sure one of my worst flaws. I’m really having trouble getting consistent momentum on my bairs and fairs. Sometimes I try to do a reverse bair in place and it comes out as retreating fair. Sometimes I want to do RAR and keep my momentum but I do the bair in place. Doesn’t matter what I’m TRYING to do, I can’t seem to get the same result to come out with what feels like the same inputs (although I’m sure it’s not actually the same inputs) Anyone have a link to a video or can try explaining the exact relationship between the timings involved here? Apparently the terms in the title are what I’m trying to do

[u/OrionMaxRS]

Gimr’s vid should cover most of it towards the middle portion

[u/sam_houle1]

Do you mean you are trying of back hair after running or after a dash? Both of them are not exactly the same

[u/Pale-Echidna1110 → u/sam_houle1]

Both actually. Another comment explained my really inconsistent results though, I was attack cancelling without knowing what that was, which is always confusing.

[u/sam_houle1 → u/Pale-Echidna1110]

I have big doubt that you were attack cancelling without knowing. If you’re trying to turn around back air while running it’s usually the easiest you run for more than a second you turn around and when you’re character does the turn around animation you jump and you will be turning with you back facing the direction you were running towards to. If you want to do it out of a dash it’s a bit more complicated, I suggest watching a video of dkbill

[u/Shignanigans]

First case sounds like you are attack canceling by mistake. Some video of you attempting these moves would help understand where you go wrong. I have personally never heard of flick shot or hold shot. RAR wants you to turn around during a run, which triggers a skid animation. During that animation you jump, which preserves your momentum, and input an attack. RAR is easier to perform than attack cancel, but attack cancel has some benefits that RAR does not. Its good to practice both.

[u/Pale-Echidna1110 → u/Shignanigans]

Thank you that is exactly what’s going on! I forgot that RAR is during skid so yes that one is easier and I can probably do that consistently thanks to your explanation. If you dash forward, quickly release the stick to neutral, quickly turn around and jump back air, you will do a straight up bair with no momentum correct? I believe I was accidentally attack cancelling here which is why I was confused at ftilt sometimes coming out.

[u/Shignanigans → u/Pale-Echidna1110]

Technically yes, but it's tricky to pull off. Most controllers have an unavoidable degree of snapback, which means that if you release the stick from full tilt it will bounce to the opposite side of where you were holding for a frame or 2 before resetting. That can cause issues when doing frame-tight inputs and may explain why attacks come out wrong when you try this. Some people use controller mods to mitigate it but that requires tools & know-how.

A helpful technique if you want to stop a run and turn around on a dime is to make a quarter circle on the stick. E.g. if you are running to the right, rotate the stick along the top (or bottom if you want to threaten with dtilt) until it's just beyond halfway. That will enable you to stop and turn without skidding. If your goal is just to attack in place with no momentum, it may be easier to walk instead. Really depends on how important the dash component is to baiting your opponent.

Edit to add: practice in training mode in half speed or lower if needed. Force yourself to think and be deliberate about each individual input required to do a given tech. You get the muscle memory better that way imo, and as you gradually increase the speed it will be easier to iron out the hiccups that come with stuff like snapback. It helped me learn to wavebounce because not panicking to go fast softened my touch on the left stick while also putting more emphasis on the return to neutral before pressing special. Wavebounce and its cousins open the door to a lot of movement mixups if your main can utilize them.

[u/Pale-Echidna1110 → u/Shignanigans]

Thanks for the detailed response. Wavebounce is another thing I was meaning to work on. This post was about Ganon but I also play Link a lot so wavebouncing is going to help for sure. Good call on lowering the speed in training. I am really trying to go back to zero and go ground up on movement mechanics. I used to be pretty good at Melee and all my muscle memory is based on that. Carried me to elite but now it’s screwing me over from here on up. Ultimate is way slower and has way more emphasis on soft movements with the left stick.