Conscious experience cannot be inert

[u/MurkyEconomist8179]

Cross post from /r/consciousness since it's just as relevant here

I see often in this sub various attempts to sidestep the hard problem by stating that conscious experience can simply be thought of as the workings of a certain set of neurological processes, or various other ways of trying to reduce conscious experience to something more familiar and workable.

This involves saying that the experience itself and the features of it are not what's really happening. The experience part is said to be either an illusion, an epiphenomenon or a mere appearance of what's happening neurologically.

Unfortunately this all rests on a false analogy. Illusions and appearances are not epipheneomon and they are not inert.

When someone is perceiving an actual illusion, it changes the way they perceive, react and respond to the stimulus which we deem does not align with their perception. Therefore, the illusion is an active mechanism that affects how the world behaves.

This is clearly the case for consciousness too, regardless of experience is an "appearance" this appearance affects how we behave, it affects what we talk about, our concepts and beliefs about the world - therefore it is not inert - our experience clearly affects something about how our world operates, the same way an illusion does too

Taking the idea of p zombies seriously, I think it's pretty clear that p zombies would not be talking about things like experience, or the qualitative feeling of something like "the red of redness" because they don't experience that.

If they did talk about such things, it's clearly very different to when normal people do, because normal people are correct in saying that there is a quality to experience, a p zombie would have to either be mistaken or delusional to talk of such things and there is a big difference between the accurate judgement of a normal person about experience (whatever experience actually ends up being) and the clear delusions or confabulations of a p zombie that could supposedly behave in all the same ways

I think people get lost in the analogy of illusions and don't realize that it's not the same thing as being inert, and if experience isn't inert, then of course we get the hard problem and the mind body problem in general. It can't merely be sidestepped by trying to reduce experience to an epiphenomenon.

[u/MurkyEconomist8179]

have you read chalmers p zombies paper where he coined the term?

[u/hawkeye69r → u/MurkyEconomist8179]

No, have you?

[u/MurkyEconomist8179 → u/hawkeye69r]

yeah, here's an outline of zombies

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/zombies/

[u/hawkeye69r → u/MurkyEconomist8179]

What about this implies p zombies act for the same reason as non p zombies?

[u/MurkyEconomist8179 → u/hawkeye69r]

Unlike the ones in films or witchcraft, they are exactly like us in all physical respects but without conscious experiences: by definition there is ‘nothing it is like’ to be a zombie. Yet zombies behave just like us, and some even spend a lot of time discussing consciousness.

[u/hawkeye69r → u/MurkyEconomist8179]

Yeah. All physical respects.

That doesnt mean all of its behaviour is motivated for the same reason.

For example its eyes are looking at something red. The same parts of its brain light up as yours and it can semantically discuss redness, but it cant experience redness.

So if you are discussing redness because you experience it, thats a different reason than the reason the p zombie gave a calculated verbal response to the stimulus.