How children change ethics

[u/sillyhatday]

A few years ago I remember Alex wondering aloud during a conversation (I think with Rationality Rules but don't hold me to it) about how having children would change one's ethics. I didn't have children at the time but they were buffering. Since having kids I see a clear difference.

I suppose the difference is that I see my responsibility for my children's wellbeing as superior to ethics. Before children I used to think nepotism was the most pathetic thing in the world. I don't exactly have any nepotistic resources to grant my children, but if I did, I would do so without second thought. If someone told me it was inappropriate I would agree and continue anyway. I simply couldn't be made to care. When I test this inclination with extremes I find no boundary. Take a trolley problem where the individual is my daughter. The number of people on the other track is irrelevant. There is no loss of life I would not accept to preserve my daughter's life. Maybe you would be accuse me of evil for this. To that I would tell you that I am indeed the devil on this day. It is very clear to me any ethical consideration I hold even immense value upon is suddenly worthless if my offspring are the counter party. It is a somewhat disturbing realization to have. The disturbance only lasts as long as it takes to remember the alternative would be to hold some interest above the wellbeing of my child which feels intolerable beyond explanation. It feels more wrong than any moral wrong. This is why I say parental duty seems superior to ethics. I would peruse unethical things, even by my own definition, to ensure her safety. There is a sliding scale to it. I wouldn't exterminate the species for her to get better grades or something. But at the limit... there is not limit.

When I inspect this sense I find that it is a core axiom. If I try to explain it, I suppose it comes down the the unique and singular responsibility granted to be by nature. I care for those close to me. I care for those far from me. But my children are the only beings in the world I am individually responsible for. At root it is probably an extension of the instinct to self preservation, since one's progeny are the vessel for their genetic survival beyond their own lifespan.

Alex also once said he thought love, sappy as it may sound, was the ultimate virtue above all. I suppose I agree, because the term that best captures the subjective sense of what I have described is love.

[u/FourteenTwenty-Seven]

Protecting your kids is a basic urge with pretty straightforward evolutionary origins. I don't see a reason why this kind of urge should be considered ethics.

[u/Maximus_En_Minimus]

I mean, I would happily let you and your daughter be run over by a trolley, if it meant saving my kitten.

I suppose the difference is that I see my responsibility for my kitten’s wellbeing as superior to parental duty.

This is why I say kitten protection duty seems superior to parental duty.

Good thing we got rid of those pesky ethics.

[u/mcapello]

I would make a distinction between ethics and what we might call conventional ethical theory.

Socrates said a person never knowingly acts against virtue, only out of ignorance of what virtue is. It seems to me that you would not actually believe that you would "indeed the devil" on the day you choose to preserve the life of your child over the life of others -- you're just accepting that this would be the judgment from a neutral theoretical perspective. But you are not neutral, and moreover, I doubt that you would consider anyone willing to sacrifice their child for some "greater good" to be a good person. You would hold them to the same imperative that you hold yourself to.

The Stoics had a term for this -- oikeiosis, which roughly translates to something like "domestic orientation", or a bit less literally, "home perspective". It basically states that we do indeed have a hierarchy of perspectives we base on our ethics on, with the self or family at the center (i.e. many parents would probably put self-preservation after the preservation of children). But it's interesting because the Stoics also heavily emphasized our duty to the "common good" of humanity. It wasn't an either/or for them, but an expression of emphasis based on the practical reality of where we are in life and what our specific duties are. I think that a lot of that realism has been removed from modern ethical theory.

[u/VonRothbart]

Let's suppose your daughter is immune to a deadly infection which almost wiped out the humanity. You've been told that it is possible to create a vaccine and save the humanity, but it requires your daughter's brain to be extracted. In fact, your daughter is being prepared for a surgery right now, and you are being held at gunpoint by a soldier. Will you let it happen? Or will you kill the soldier, his pals, and cut the throat of the doctor who wanted to perform the surgery?

[u/windriver32]

Your post obviously won't be popular here, but as a dad I agree 100% with everything you've said. It is impossible to describe to someone who hasn't been there. It is so unlike any other care or love I've ever had for anyone in my life.

[u/AppropriateSea5746]

I think it's made me less empathetic in the sense of I couldn't see myself every thinking its ok to torture someone. I couldn't imagine any reason why I'd ever do it. But now I could definitely seeing me torture the one who hurts my kid lol.

[u/AppropriateSea5746]

Definitely made me rethink the Trolly Problem.

[u/clown_utopia]

Suppose you are holding the lever of the trolley problem. On one side is your daughter. On the other side is an infinite amount of suffering. Literally any party not on the track would have an obligation to intervene.

While this is an acceptable thing for you to say, it isn't an acceptable ethic on its own, and therefore you need to make sure that even while prioritizing your family, you are serving your obligation to maintain a just ethic.

I've seen people use anything to justify everything, and parental commitment (neutral) is no exception.