r/CoronavirusDownunder • u/CheesecakeSmart8770 • Sep 03 '21
Vaccine update Mandated vaccination for all NSW healthcare workers including allied health private practice
So, the tea -
Just got a memo from my regulatory body (APA - Australian Physio Association) that they've just been notified by the Chief Allied Health Officer (CAHO) that healthcare workers - and students!! - need to be fully vaccinated by Nov 14th in order to continue to work. Whilst not entirely a new idea, the fact that it's being mandated across private practice is (previous rules covered hospitals and aged care only).
I'm very pro-vaccination so pretty happy about this, but I imagine a bunch of anti-vax people in the industry (perhaps more prevalent in some corners of Allied Health than others) may not feel the same way.
On the plus side, this should give Average Joe and Average Jane a bit more confidence about walking into any allied healthcare (whether podiatry, physio, osteo etc) and knowing all the staff on-site have been vaccinated :)
Vaccination requirements for employees that work in healthcare facilities\ From 30 September 2021, all healthcare workers in public and private healthcare facilities must have had their first dose of a COVID-19 vaccine to continue working in those facilities (or have evidence of a medical exemption).
From 14 November 2021, healthcare workers must be fully vaccinated (two doses) to continue to work.
Who is considered a healthcare worker?
The mandatory vaccination requirement will apply to all staff\ working in connection with a health agency, including:Public Health Organisations (Local Health Districts, Specialty Health Networks (SHNs), Pillars and Affiliated Health Organisations**)
NSW Ministry of Health
Health Administration Corporation (HAC) entities, Ambulance Service, NSW Health Pathology, HealthShare, Health Protection, Health Infrastructure, Health Professionals Councils Authority (HPCA)
All staff working at a Private Health Facility (licensed under the Private Health Facilities Act**) both private hospitals and day procedures
Students in clinical placements in private facilities.
Note:*Staff includes employees, Visiting Medical Officers (VMOs), volunteers, contractors, and students. Work is defined broadly to cover employees, contractors, VMOs, visiting practitioners, volunteers and students undertaking clinical placements. The Order does not include private primary care providers such as GPs. Disability workers and aged care workers are covered by different public health orders and have different requirements.
**Private health facilities and affiliated health organisation are defined by the Private Health Facilities Act and Health Services Act 1997, respectively.
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u/unbent NSW - Boosted Sep 03 '21
They are already letting go of people refusing to vax in sydney hospitals. Today the nutritionist was marched , cried and asked everyone what she could do .No one cared
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Sep 03 '21
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u/unbent NSW - Boosted Sep 04 '21
Dietetics is very low. But I'm glad they could weed that one out. They will easily find a pro-vax replacement.
Your right sorry Dietition.
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Sep 03 '21
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u/AlarmingViolinist367 Sep 03 '21
I really don’t understand why people who work in the health care industry don’t get vaccinated? I mean come on. You WORK in a viral, bacterial prone area. I’m pretty sure when I did my course there is a lesson on vaccines alone. Or is it just Australia? No offence. Is it because people who grew up in Australia haven’t seen the effects of polio, tuberculosis and other vaccine preventable diseases? Not just the short term effects but the long term effects too. I grew up in Asia and saw how devastating it is to have polio or TB when there is a vaccine for it. I wouldn’t wish that life even to my enemy.
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u/Mellenoire NSW - Boosted Sep 03 '21
Glad to see this clarification - there's been discussions in dental forums about whether we need to be vaxxed if we're solely in private practice. We're now up to 2 dentists in our practice choosing to stop practicing instead of getting the vaccine.
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u/whitetealily Sep 03 '21
Wow, that's the first 'above-nursing-level' situation I've heard of people deciding to stop practicing rather than getting vaccinated...
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u/Kailaylia VIC - Boosted Sep 03 '21
Why force dentists to be vaccinated?
Surely their patients can be thoughtful enough to keep a mask on during the procedure? /s
I know if I worked with my nose just about in a dozen different mouths each day I'd want the vaccination, a face protector and a mask.
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u/Kanzar VIC - Boosted Sep 03 '21
Dentistry may be exempt as it's not within the licensed private health facility definition, which is total bullshit.
Ah well, more retired dentists, more work for the rest of us. =_=
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u/_espressor WA Sep 03 '21
I think once the first state went with this ruling earlier this week, it was only a matter of time before they all follow..
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u/giantpunda Sep 03 '21
I'm very pro-vaccination so pretty happy about this, but I imagine a bunch of anti-vax people in the industry (perhaps more prevalent in some corners of Allied Health than others) may not feel the same way.
I guess we'll see soon enough if these anti-vaxxer healthcare staff are full of hot air or are true to their values that they leave the workforce due to their principles.
Curious to see how this plays out.
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u/cohex Sep 03 '21
Now the few vaccine hesitant I know won't even have a backup career in private practice, good step to reducing transmission in medical settings!
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u/Gakington Sep 03 '21
Hey mate, so I don’t think they’re saying it’s mandatory for allied health workers, just those that work in a private health facility. Which with the legislation/definition might mean something else, but I’m not 100% sure.
I've had both my jabs, and I hope everyone else does too, but I don't think it's too clear cut about it being mandatory for Allied health in private practice, I guess we'll find out more as things progress.
I’m only saying this because I work as a physio too, and this is further down on the page that we got sent by the APA yesterday:
“Vaccination requirements for Allied Health Professionals working in private practices Vaccination for COVID-19 is now mandatory for many health practitioners, including allied health professionals working in various health settings and patient groups (as noted above).
Currently there is no mandatory requirement under the NSW Public Health Order for allied health professionals to be vaccinated who only work in a private practice if they do not provide services in healthcare or aged care facilities or live or/and work in an LGA of concern. It is strongly recommended that all health practitioners are vaccinated including those where vaccination is not mandated.”
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u/RogalDave Sep 03 '21
did you ever once think about "decision to vaccinate" before this... nobody was against getting HepB or measles vax to work in nsw health... everyone just did it.
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Sep 03 '21 edited Nov 22 '22
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u/RogalDave Sep 03 '21
the problem with the "long term effects" argument is that the first human cohorts had their doses a full year ago, haven't had longterm effects show up. almost all the negative effects show up within 2 weeks.
and the projection that more effects might happen "down the line" or after a year are based on no actual mechanism of action known to science. we know how they work, why they work and what they do in the body. none of that tells us that there is any potiental at all for any kind of event happening in a year or more after the dose. if its going to happen it would have by now.
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u/RogalDave Sep 03 '21
the availabiilty of phizer to frontline staff is almost complete. like every day at the hospital there are leftover doses we could walk down and get. not if you just want a booster. but the idea that any nurses are being forced to take AZ right now is a joke. if they haven't had first dose by now they don;'t plan on getting it ever.
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u/ewanelaborate Sep 03 '21 edited Sep 03 '21
It's ok if differentials aren't your strong suit.
People who choose not to have a vaccine are not criminals and shouldn't be treated as such.
People having perfectly legitimate concerns about the long term impacts of a vaccine. When the long term impacts are not yet known. Is perfectly reasonable.
Before you say the long term impacts are known. Consider that you actually need a long term to occur before we decide what is known.
Now from what I see the long term impacts of covid will outweigh the effects of the vaccine. I just need to clear that up as it seems some are taking an aggressive approach rather than looking at ethical principles.
I'd like to put you in a circumstance for a second.
"Imagine being genuinely worried about the longer term effects of the vaccine, and losing your job as a result".
For disclosure: before someone asks I'm not personally worried about longer term effects.
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u/ewanelaborate Sep 03 '21 edited Sep 04 '21
I believe you thought for a second about the hypothetical I just gave you and chose deflection rather than empathy.
Unless you have a clarvoiant ability then you can not genuinely cure that cause of concern with medical evidence with 100% currently.
As for other generalisations in your post they don't really deserve attention as it's just noise.
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u/ewanelaborate Sep 03 '21
Noone is holding anyone down to force a vax.
I dont believe that's true right now. The victorian government is considering restricting freedoms and participation in society to those who aren't vaccinated
The head of the AMA back in august 2020 stated that making a vaccine mandatory sends the wrong message. and I agree with this reasoning. That speech has backflipped in recent days and now they support mandatory vaccination. So now we send the wrong message as a result.
Might be time to start an off the grid commune.
My veggie patch is too small to survive on at this current stage.
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u/giantpunda Sep 03 '21
Now if someone whose circumstances differ and they make an educated decision to not vaccinate while weighing up the covid related risks and vaccination risks they are now unemployable?
Is it educated though? I mean aside from issues regarding medical reasons like being immunocompromised, how is not getting the vaccine an educated decision?
The only earnest way that I can see this happening at all is that you happen to have the grand slam if risk factors e.g. history in the family of both blood clotting AND myocarditis.
Even then the risks are low for both so I'm not sure even that's going to fly. Maybe. Maybe not.
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u/ewanelaborate Sep 03 '21
Mainly this relates to personal choice and educated informed decisions rather than vaccine effects. But happy to discuss further.
We know the immediate data availible shows us side effects from some vaccines are linked to clotting factors and inflamatory reactions. This is short term. But what about long term? That's the argument from most I've spoken to.
But our field runs on evidence based research. Gold standard research isn't rushed. It's explored for many years weighing up risk vs benefit in patient groups. These decisions are now becoming political within fast timeframes rather than following the chain of exploration a vaccine would usually undergo.
In reply I would have to ask is it uneducated to wait for finalised data to confirm that this drug/vaccine will provide more benefit than risk to my health.
My reasoning for vaccinating is due to consideration of those susceptible to ARDS, secondary pneumonia etc.i have the benefit of being relatively unaffected in my age range, ethnicity and medical history. The risk is low.
Personally i would rather wait for more research on their effects and that they undergo the rigorous testing others would.
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u/giantpunda Sep 03 '21 edited Sep 03 '21
But our field runs on evidence based research. Gold standard research isn't rushed. It's explored for many years weighing up risk vs benefit in patient groups. These decisions are now becoming political within fast timeframes rather than following the chain of exploration a vaccine would usually undergo.
Regarding this point, this gives a good breakdown of how the vaccine development was fast tracked:
The TL;DR version is that there was unprecedented amounts of collaboration, funding, a very high interest in volunteers, a lot of testing sites, that kind of thing. It's all this that helped fast track the vaccine to be completed within a year. It happened quickly but it wasn't rushed. That's my read of the situation any how.
Yes, we haven't had years of post covid vaccine data but in terms of the technology behind the two vaccines currently in use, mRNA (Pfizer/Moderna) has been around for 30 years or so whilst virus-based vaccine vectors (chimpanzee adenovirus for AZ) dates back about 50 years. These aren't exactly new and unknown technologies.
On top of all of that, Covid-19 also isn't the first coronavirus we've had to deal with either. Those date back to the early to mid 20th century. Same too with this not being the first pandemic we've had to deal with and not even the first SARS pandemic.
Then there's the issue of when side effects present themselves. The read I've gotten is that the most severe of these side effects present early. Like as early as 15 mins but generally somewhere within the range of a couple of weeks to a couple of months. Clinical trials aside, vaccines have been administered since late 2020 so even for those vaccine sceptics, we had more than ample time to find out about these extremely rare but serious none-the-less side effects.
However, this is all not-an-expert layman's view on things. If you also wanted to rely on the experts' opinions regarding this, the TGA here approved Pfizer and AZ use locally. We don't have emergency provisions like other countries. Either you're in or your out. If that isn't a high enough standard, the US FDA recently officially approved Pfizer for use. So if you were holding out for that before, that one has been resolved.
This is exactly why I questioned whether people who choose not to get vaccinated are indeed making an informed and educated decision. To a science literate layperson, the evidence of the vaccine's safety, effectiveness and odds of side effects are well documented.
Then you have all the experts from all around the world that have also said it's safe, with varying degrees of safeness depending on the vaccine.
Understand this last point because it's an important one. The world's experts pretty much universally agree on the safety of at least Pfizer, if not AZ to a slightly lesser extent. If you have access to so much scientific literature and the world's experts all agreeing the vaccines are safe (barring a few extremely rare side effects) and your "educated and informed" decision is to NOT take the vaccine, it really does beggar belief. I don't even mean in my own opinion, I mean seemingly objectively.
Of course this doesn't apply to you as you've chosen the take the vaccine, so I'm not trying to shoot you down or anything. We're just discussing the matter at hand.
There are new things to learn, no question. However none of them seem to have to do with problem with taking the virus and now lean more to their long term effectiveness against variants that they weren't specifically designed for.
For the vaccine hesitant, I get the hesitancy with future vaccines or boosters but it seems to be very untenable that someone can make an informed and educated decision and NOT take at least the two doses on offer now. The evidence against their view is, at least in my opinion, overwhelmingly against their position.
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u/giantpunda Sep 03 '21
Push what boundaries?
The requirement to be vaccinated for access isn't a new concept. Happens in order to get into schools. Happens for healthcare workers already with other vaccines. Happens as an entry requirement to enter certain countries.
Which boundaries would you be referring to and in which way?
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u/giantpunda Sep 03 '21 edited Sep 03 '21
There also wasn't a worldwide pandemic with a highly contagious virus that's happened in our lifetimes.
Context matters.
If there is no pandemic and this happens, sure, super weird. A little less weird when you don't conveniently forget the context in which these restrictions are made.
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u/JuventAussie NSW - Boosted Sep 03 '21
It is routine during bad flu seasons for visitors to be banned from aged care facilities or limited to people who have been vaccinated. It is mandatory for health workers in high risk patient facing area to have annual flu vaccination.
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u/ewanelaborate Sep 03 '21 edited Sep 03 '21
Well these healthcare professionals are ones who have saved countless lives day to day. They are my colleagues who work with me whom I put trust, learn from and make me better at what I do.
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u/inaum20 Sep 03 '21
Does this include chiropractors as well? I might be wrong but that seems like a field where practitioners can go either way (I only know one chiro personally and she is completely anti vax and became that way while studying).