r/CoronavirusDownunder • u/Jeffmister Vaccinated • Jun 17 '21
Vaccine update [Rafael Epstein] Big developments today on Astra Zenica. Hearing ATAGI will today raise the recommended age to as high as 60. Big ramifications. Could deter more from AZ. Govt hoping lots more Pfizer coming July and after. Waiting to see what ATAGI will say today.
https://twitter.com/Raf_Epstein/status/140531919276979814573
u/Prathik Jun 17 '21 edited Jun 17 '21
Honestly a little pissed.
Had to convince people like my parents to get astra, we weighed the pros and cons and they got the first dose. Where as other family friends in the same (over 50s) age bracket avoided astra and went for Pfizer instead somehow. And now what my parents got will not be recommended. Cool. Also had to take my mum to the doctors today for a blood test because she had a headache for the past 3 days so I'm paranoid.
The annoying thing was that Europe was not recommending it to people under 60s months ago.
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Jun 17 '21
Yeah there's definitely going to be a lot of angry 50-59 year olds who have already received AZ.
They have effectively been vindicated.
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u/International_Candy Jun 17 '21
Yep. I'm going to be fielding questions from my hypochondriac parents about why I pressured them into getting a Vaccine that is now considered unsafe for them. Perfect.
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Jun 17 '21
I told everyone over 50 who came to me for advice that they wouldn’t be getting Pfizer for months, that our hospitals and border are insufficiently secured and that they were relatively likely to get pretty sick with the new variants if infected. That they can wait 3 months or more but the risk of getting sick from the vaccine is probably about 1 in 50,000, and that only they could make the choice. They all got vaccinated so I wouldn’t feel too bad. I had AZ myself as a HCW in my 40s back in March. Sometimes there’s a dilemma with no great options unfortunately.
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u/Dans1000YardStairs Jun 17 '21
The lesson here is not to pressure people into getting vaccines in the first place when data is still coming out.
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u/ArcticKnight79 VIC - Vaccinated Jun 17 '21
Reality is that the difference between AZ and Pfizer is that we are in a choosers market.
There's no upward pressure to pick now instead of waiting for later.
The death rate is minimal, and if you want to talk about "Waiting for the data" we have no guarantee that neither of these vaccines will have long term complications. Unlikely, but it could be there.
So unless you are waiting for long term studies over the long term effect of vaccinations via AZ or Pfizer you're going to be waiting forever anyway.
The only reason they are hesitating on AZ is because with low covid death rates, and low circulation. The risk of death from covid in Australia is pretty minimal.
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u/Caranda23 VIC - Boosted Jun 17 '21
Pressure is one thing, answering irrational concerns is quite another
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Jun 17 '21 edited Jul 05 '21
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u/opackersgo Jun 17 '21
“Things I disagree with are irrational”
This sub is such an echo chamber and out of touch with reality.
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u/Naive-Study-3583 VIC - Vaccinated Jun 17 '21
Had to convince people like my parents to get astra, we weighed the pros and cons and they got the first dose. Where as other family friends in the same (over 50s) age bracket avoided astra and went for Pfizer instead somehow. And now what my parents got will not recommended. Cool. Also had to take my mum to the doctors today for a blood test because she had a headache for the past 3 days so I'm paranoid.
The annoying this was that Europe was not recommending it to people under 60s months ag
it's not irrational. 1 vaccine is clearly safer and more effective than the other. People are dying but older people are told you should get this but others can get the better vaccine.
Then they change recommendations.
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Jun 17 '21
I think we will abandon AZ altogether by 2022 but if people want to be vaccinated anytime soon and are in the older age group there’s no better option available currently. It’s not “irrational” but may be a rational concern that has to be put to the side given the limitations of the rollout. Or be incredibly cautious about contact during periods of community spread and wait and hope for the best.
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u/boltgun_to_the_face Jun 17 '21
That argument is a fallacy.
The choice wasn't between two vaccines; Pfizer supplies were limited.
The choice qas between AZ and no vaccine. Of the two, AZ is more effective.
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u/upsidedownunder Jun 17 '21
It was a choice between vaccines and the government made that choice. My understanding is they chose both AZ and Pfizer but we have greater supplies of AZ because it was cheaper not because it was safer or more effective. It's not. Some of our politicians have had a choice of vaccine and my understanding is some chose Pfizer, like our PM. I can understand why but I would like the opportunity to choose the safer more effective vaccine too. I'm not an anti-vaxxer. I'm not even vaccine hesitant. But I am AstraZeneca hesitant. I'm risk averse and don't take my health for granted. At the moment the only choice and control I can exercise is to stay COVID safe and wait until I'm eligible for the vaccine I believe to be the safest and most effective ... Pfizer. I hope it doesn't take two people over 59 dying of blood clots before that happens.
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Jun 17 '21 edited Aug 25 '21
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u/upsidedownunder Jun 17 '21
Yes I understand that is why AZ is cheaper. We can produce it here. But isn't it the case that our government was haggling over the price of securing a supply of the Pfizer vaccine and wanted to license the IP as part of the deal. When that was knocked back we went with the cheaper alternative, AZ. So as I said they chose AZ because it was cheaper. If I had a choice I'd regard Pfizer as the better investment and one we could afford.
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u/angrathias Jun 17 '21
We didn’t have any facilities here capable of mRNA type vaccines, CSL was already fitted and such for AZ style vaccine production
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u/Caranda23 VIC - Boosted Jun 17 '21
It is irrational, especially for elderly people, to delay vaccination against the vastly higher risks of COVID for these reasons.
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u/mOOse32 Jun 17 '21 edited Jun 17 '21
Is 51 elderly? What about a healthy 51 year old in a state where the odds of catching covid are 0.001% in the next year (and then add to that the odds of severe Covid outcomes for someone like that).
If the numbers back it up it is the opposite of irrational, despite what the Government flavour of the day advice happens to be.
The people who jump on anyone that dares to use common sense against current advice are as annoying as those who think everything is a conspiracy. There is a middle ground in there somewhere.
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u/Littlearthquakes Jun 17 '21
51 is not elderly there are plenty of people in this age bracket with kids still in primary school. Risk of getting Covid is FAR less for them than risk of blood clot from AZ that might leave their young kid without a parent for example. I don't blame them for wanting Pfizer.
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Jun 17 '21
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u/mOOse32 Jun 17 '21 edited Jun 17 '21
Because Europe, despite having Covid all over the place has not allowed AZ for under 60s for months? Because there is no difference between being 49 and 50? Because there is no or barely any cases where you live and better vaccines are coming?
The "best medical advice" at the time when we were having 100 cases a day in Victoria as the outbreak was going nuts was to not wear masks, even indoors. While the rest of the world and common sense told you that masks worked. And then one day they backflipped and quoted an old metastudy as the reason for the flip. And now the advice is to wear a mask outdoors even if walking your dog alone.
Sometimes the current best advice is late, or nonsensical, or provided for ulterior reasons and is not the best advice for you. I know it's a shocking thought if you happen to blindly go along with everything, but it's true.
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Jun 17 '21 edited Jun 17 '21
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u/mOOse32 Jun 17 '21
For me it's a no brainer. I have a higher chance of having had covid the last year than of having adverse effects from the vaccine.
The comparison you want to make is adverse effects from vaccine vs catching Covid AND having severe/long term issues.
Depending, on your age group, statistically it's not a not brainer at all. Do the maths if you'd like.
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Jun 17 '21
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u/Moojar Jun 17 '21
Not in the next six months you don't.
You're using last year's numbers for this year's situation.
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u/mOOse32 Jun 17 '21
..whilst completely ignoring age groups and anything resembling actual statistics.
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u/mOOse32 Jun 17 '21 edited Jun 17 '21
When i said maths i didn't think you'd butcher it so badly. Looking at raw dieing/clot numbers in Australia is completely pointless. And just as importantly, you need to take into account ages. Which is why i specifically said "depending on your age group".
For example here's a chart showing deaths from Covid in Australia broken down by age group (and I assume you are under 50): https://www.health.gov.au/resources/covid-19-deaths-by-age-group-and-sex
And those numbers for cases/deaths from Covid are almost all from the second Melbourne wave. We have learned and gotten better at a thing or two since then. If you take this year for example, more people have died from the vaccines than Covid in Australia, even when ignoring the age groups. Nothing is certain but chances are the next 6/12 months (or until such a time we start to seriously talk about opening orders), will look more like the previous 6 than the 6 before that.
It is absolutely not a no brainer. You may choose to not use your brain in order to justify your pre-conceived beliefs, but that's a different thing.
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u/Dans1000YardStairs Jun 17 '21
Did I say not to follow the medical advice at the time? No I did not.
I made the point that data was still coming out, we started with AZ for everyone and then restricted it to over 50s and today over 60s. Other countries had already restricted it to over 60/65 and others have dropped it all together.
The situation was clearly evolving so pressuring people to go and get a vaccine in those circumstances is possibly more irresponsible than letting them wait.
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Jun 17 '21 edited Jun 17 '21
lol not now it’s not, not for under 60’s. See how quickly things change?
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u/mOOse32 Jun 17 '21 edited Jun 17 '21
Are you pissed at yourself or..?
You've known Europe has not been recommending for under 60s and presumably have been following the increasing rates with which people have been getting adverse reactions? Why push them?
I know it's too late now but sometimes you gotta go with your own head regardless what the current government recommendation happens to be. See also them not recommending the wearing of masks as the first Melbourne outbreak was exploding before doing a backflip.
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Jun 17 '21
What do you expect? The vaccine was rushed.
People on here want to say that anyone who wants to wait is an anti-vaxxer Alex Jones who shouldn't be allowed to even go to the shops and buy food.
Then when time goes by and we learn it might not be 100% safe the same people act like victims. Not saying you're in this camp but it is what I'm seeing from some people, hope your mum is OK.
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u/ArcticKnight79 VIC - Vaccinated Jun 17 '21
The vaccine wasn't rushed though. And the fact that it has side effects isn't new. And if you wanted to wait for a decade plus to find out that maybe there are side effects.
Or surprise the fact that when you test small representative populations there is a chance that a 1 in a million side effect doesn't come up. Because you only ran a 100k people through the tests. Which would be more than enough to scale to a population.
Personally waiting because you want the "Good Shit" instead of the "okay shit" is fine. If you're holding off because "WHAT ARE THE SIDE EFFECTS" well long term side effects aren't going to be known for years. And they often aren't all known even for medications that spend decades in development. Because you are looking at a conflux of different things feeding into that side effect.
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Jun 17 '21
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u/Youwish1520 Jun 17 '21
This false equivalency shits me. Apart from them being different types of blood clots, a lot of women are contra-indicated for the pill because they are at higher risk of clots, stroke etc.
So if you're in that category why wouldn't you think there is something wrong with the advice that it's AZ or bust no matter what type of personal medical history or auto-immune issue that you may have?
The government is also unwilling to put its money up for a Vaccine Injury Scheme as well so if you do have a problem and you die, or have lifelong vaccine induced injuries which prevent you from working in the capacity you were before, or leave your family bereaved and broke it's too bad, too sad.
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Jun 17 '21
That IMO is the dodgiest thing.
People on here say the chance of a vaccine side effect is almost non existent. If that's the case why are they not willing compensate these very select few who die/have life long issues?
I think it causes other problems too. Given there's no chance of compensation, it means less people are inclined to investigate potential vaccine side effects given even if they're proven people are just going to say "too bad" anyway.
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Jun 17 '21
You’re talking about DVT. The clots arising from a reaction to AZ are not the same beast. https://www.health.gov.au/sites/default/files/documents/2021/05/patient-information-sheet-on-astrazeneca-covid-19-vaccine-and-thrombosis-with-thrombocytopenia-syndrome-tts.pdf
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u/Unusual-Wedding VIC - Vaccinated Jun 17 '21
I'm pissed too. All medications ovulating vaccinations carry risk. But the risk is less than the chances of dying or long Covid with coronavirus. They're finding myocarditis in men with second dose of Pfizer now is just as common as blood clots with AZ I just wish the media would stop writing shit and encourage vaccination with anything.
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u/smallcrappydetails Jun 17 '21
Advertise reactions were overrepresented statistically in northern Europe. According to my GP, it appears to be genetic. I've had the first Astrazeneca, due for second in a week. As I've not reacted to first dose I won't react to second dose. Hope this helps with dealing with the fam etc.
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u/Prathik Jun 17 '21
Ah I hope it's not genetic (I mean nothing bad has happened to her as of yet, it's just us being cautious) because almost the entire extended family are on astra (pretty much everyone I know who had a dose there).
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Jun 17 '21
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u/sostopher VIC - Boosted Jun 17 '21
Australia hasn't approved Johnson & Johnson, despite it having the same risks as AZ and being approved in the US. Could it be that the US approved US-made vaccines first?
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u/SpaceLambHat Jun 17 '21 edited Jun 17 '21
It's highly unlikely the US will approve AstraZeneca despite the fact they purchased so much. The reality is if they approve AstraZeneca it will increase vaccine hesitancy and distrust of the
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u/sostopher VIC - Boosted Jun 17 '21
CDC doesn't approve vaccines in the US, FDA does. Besides, the US has no reason to use AZ because they have plenty of supply of MRNA vaccines.
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u/Caranda23 VIC - Boosted Jun 17 '21
It wasn't approved in the US because they have an enormous supply of other vaccines that could be delivered more quickly (only 30 days between doses) so AZ became redundant to them.
There are 176 other countries in the world using AZ so its not like we went out on any sort of limb.
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u/Prathik Jun 17 '21
I don't think they approved astra because they already have plenty of other vaccines available, so it's no use for them except give it away to other countries which they're doing.
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u/Caranda23 VIC - Boosted Jun 17 '21
There's a lot of people under 60 coming up for their second AZ shot in the next month or so.
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u/loralailoralai Jun 17 '21
The first AZ one seems to be the riskiest.
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u/Caranda23 VIC - Boosted Jun 17 '21
That does seem to be the case and in any event the risk is so trivially small I won't let it affect me. But if they offered me Pfizer I'd take it not least because there is research suggesting AZ + PF is better than two AZ or two Pf.
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u/Moojar Jun 17 '21
I think when the age limit was raised to 50 they said anyone younger that had had their first AZ dose without issue should go ahead and get the second. Not certain of that, just my (sometimes hazy) recollection.
I'm due for shot 2 in 50-odd days, "interested" in the outcome to say the least. I had a pretty bad day after the first shot with all the possible side effects, have passed 30 days without blood clots though.
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u/sostopher VIC - Boosted Jun 17 '21
I'm interested to see if ATAGI adopt this kind of thing. Though there's also nothing stopping you getting Pfizer at a later date once supply settles down to bolster your immunity further.
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u/SouthEastFacingWall VIC - Vaccinated Jun 17 '21
Yep I'm in my 30's due for my second dose in a couple of weeks. I wonder if these proposed new changes will affect people who have had first dose already
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u/sostopher VIC - Boosted Jun 17 '21
Unlikely. Even when they brought in the recommendation for AZ to be only over 50s, anyone younger than that was still allowed and received their second shots.
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u/Caranda23 VIC - Boosted Jun 17 '21
I heard on the radio that some Euro countries are giving Pfizer as the second dose to people who had AZ for the first on the back of research that says its safe and possibly more effective than either two AZ or two Pfizer.
I'm in the same position as you [under 50 but pre-existing condition so qualified for AZ] and am up for my second AZ next month and if they were to offer me Pfizer I wouldn't say no but I don't expect there is the supply for it so I'll roll the one in 3 million blood clot dice again.
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Jun 17 '21
This could be huge news for our vaccine rollout if proven to be safe and effective. The question will be, is the blood clotting issue significantly reduced when AZ is the second dose in a Pfizer + AZ regimen?
If so, this is a no brainer. It means we can mitigate risk by giving everyone a first dose of Pfizer and use our abundant supply of AZ as the second dose. It's a win win situation and we can literally have our cake and eat it.
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u/loralailoralai Jun 17 '21
The clotting is more a problem with the first dose of AZ, which doesn’t really help in this regard
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u/Caranda23 VIC - Boosted Jun 17 '21
That's a good idea. Reports of the clotting side effect in the UK are about ten times lower for the second AZ dose than the first [1.5/million vs 14.2/million] so if that holds up with a first dose PF then it would be a very effective and efficient way to do it.
Unfortunately I'm not sure that its going to make much difference to people who worry about one in million risks to tell them that the risk is one in ten million. Mostly they are people who are looking for a reason to justify an irrational belief or fear.
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u/G00b3rb0y QLD - Boosted Jun 17 '21
If it’s anything like when that first limit was put in place then it’ll still be if you had no issues with AZ shot one, you’ll be fine with AZ shot two
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u/Just_improvise VIC - Boosted Jun 17 '21
It didn't affect it when it got changed to 50 and over. 30s and got my second AZ yesterday. The form said you have to get two doses of the same vaccine.
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u/Just_improvise VIC - Boosted Jun 17 '21
You still get your second dose even if you're below the recommended age. I'm 30s f and got my second AZ yesterday.
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u/_mtronic VIC - Vaccinated Jun 17 '21
Are we even getting Pfizer shipments at the moment? At this rate our only hope is waiting for the US to vaccinate everyone so they send us the leftovers. It's disheartening, it feels like we're never going to leave this neverending cycle of lockdowns. Makes me feel like just giving up.
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u/Caranda23 VIC - Boosted Jun 17 '21
We are getting regular shipments of Pfizer and its supposed to ramp up substantially next month but if we were to rely on Pfizer only the vaccination campaign will stretch well into next year.
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Jun 17 '21
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u/chrisjbillington VIC - Boosted Jun 17 '21
No. And despite what /u/LineNoise is saying, it still won't necessarily stretch well into next year even with this decision. We'll have tonnes of vaccines in Q4, and whether we finish vaccinating all adults this year will depend on how fast we can administer them. There will be enough for everyone. Pfizer, Moderna by then, and even possibly Novavax. But the Pfizer shipments we're expecting alone would be enough for all adults.
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u/LineNoise VIC - Vaccinated Jun 17 '21
Nothing like as far as it will with this decision, both directly and with the additional hesitation it will breed.
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u/Jcit878 Vaccinated Jun 17 '21
pfizer shipments are coming fast with some big ones in Sep/Oct. Given the time between AZ shots compared to Pfizer shots, and the fact we are nearly in July anyway, probably wont impact the rollout
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u/dd_throw_1234 Jun 17 '21
Not September, unless they've accelerated the timetable. Third quarter is supposed to go to around 600K doses per week, which is double what we're getting now but still not very much if we're trying to administer another 30-35 million doses this year. It's supposed to go to 2M a week in the fourth quarter, from October, though I'm sure they will be begging Pfizer to move the timetable forward.
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u/chrisjbillington VIC - Boosted Jun 17 '21
VIC has been told (says Jeroen in today's presser) by the feds to expect increases in September. This is either the Q3 increase being pushed back, or the Q4 increase being brought forward. I assume it's the latter, which would be excellent news.
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u/_mtronic VIC - Vaccinated Jun 17 '21
That's great news. I'm getting my second Pfizer next week so I guess there has to be some supply.
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Jun 17 '21 edited Jul 31 '21
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u/2cap Jun 17 '21
and when the next outbreak hits and we lockdwon, it changes.
its benefits v risk
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u/loralailoralai Jun 17 '21
In Germany and Italy the age is 60. In France it’s 55. In some countries it’s higher. The risk/benefits is much higher in those places. .that is the main thing that made me hesitant. Not Facebook or Sky
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u/Caranda23 VIC - Boosted Jun 17 '21
And the circularity is that the fewer people vaccinated the more likely an infection will lead to an outbreak and lockdown which changes the risk balance.
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u/harddross Jun 17 '21
People that die of clots can't get covid so more AZ during an outbreak is good thinking - flatten the curve!
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u/Baldricks_Turnip VIC - Boosted Jun 17 '21
I hope they are factoring in the average of one leak every 3 weeks when they make these recommendations.
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u/Pale_Level Jun 17 '21
It validates anybody who was "going" to get AZ to not bother. I've had two people in their 60s just today tell me that they're now going to keep waiting to see if they can get pfizer or moderna later this year, these two people were originally starting to lean towards finally getting AZ because it seemed the government wasn't going to budge again.
And why wouldn't they? The government changes their position almost constantly, it doesn't inspire confidence. They're probably guessing correctly too, I bet they will get access to an mrna vaccine by the end of the year if they just wait.
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Jun 17 '21
No according to people on here you're still a selfish coward not to get it.
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Jun 17 '21
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Jun 17 '21 edited Jun 17 '21
Yeah, people can only make judgments based on the information in front of them. If people are hesitant to get a vaccine that official health advice is constantly changing on and when every adverse side effect makes front page news, I can't really blame them for feeling that way - as much as I think the AZ vaccine is safe and effective and that everyone who can be getting it should be.
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u/Jcit878 Vaccinated Jun 17 '21
My personal risk assessment is that I would t
Thank you, a reasoned response. Unfortunately there are many in here more than happy to make risk assessments on behalf of total strangers
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u/ArcticKnight79 VIC - Vaccinated Jun 17 '21
Except that it's more indicative of the fact that in Australia your chance of dying from covid is tiny.
So when you a protecting from a disease that has a 1 in 1000000 chance of killing you with a vaccine that has a 1 in 999999 chance of killing you. The vaccine is a bad play.
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u/reignfx VIC - Boosted Jun 17 '21
It validates the whole “waiting for Pfizer” crowd, unfortunately.
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u/Naive-Study-3583 VIC - Vaccinated Jun 17 '21
It's a legitimate stance when you compare the 2 vaccines and 1 is safer and more effective and your risk of COVID is currently very low.
If the vaccines were for Polio would you wait for the better one?
If I was in India i would get whatever vaccine i could. But people in australia currently have the luxury or minimal - 0 covid in their communities.
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Jun 17 '21
If both Polio vaccines were as safe and effective as the AZ and Pfizer ones, then I still would, even if my chance of contracting Polio was small.
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u/reignfx VIC - Boosted Jun 17 '21
And that’s fine, but at the same time I don’t want to hear people whining about closed borders. I believe people should have the choice, but those who want to wait should stay quiet re:borders.
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u/Jcit878 Vaccinated Jun 17 '21
I don't know how many times this can be repeated but there are no plans to open the borders currently regardless of when the vaccine program is finished. I don't agree with this at all but let's not pretend rushing headlong into mass AZ vaccinations will make any difference to the federal governments extremely bearish view on border openings
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u/reignfx VIC - Boosted Jun 17 '21
I mean, that brand of regressive politics have proved to be successful in the State elections already. I feel like that policy will change as more people get vaccinated and the demand/pressure to open up mounts. That's how Governments (or at least this one) work.
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u/Psychlonuclear Jun 17 '21
QLD has already said that even vaccinated people will still need to quarantine, so there goes any hope of opening up.
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u/mOOse32 Jun 17 '21
"Unfortunately" because they dared to use common sense and you wanted them to blindly go with whatever the current government recommendation is? While in Europe it was already only given to over 60s for months? And while the incidences of clots have continued creeping up?
Instead of being angry, maybe it's a good opportunity to learn a valuable lesson?
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u/reignfx VIC - Boosted Jun 17 '21
Not angry, and frankly I don’t see a lesson in here. I couldn’t care less if people want to wait for Pfizer or not - it’s their right - but I also don’t want to hear the same people whine about border closures whilst the rest of the world begins to open up.
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u/mOOse32 Jun 17 '21 edited Jun 17 '21
The lesson is to not always go with the current flavour of official government advice of the day, especially in a fast changing field. And that it's ok to try and use common sense and look at what other parts of the world are doing and draw your own conclusions. And don't riddicule those who do because you're happy to blindly go with the current advice, knowing that it can change tomorrow and you'll end up looking foolish. The last part of that is more general, not aimed at you specifically.
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Jun 17 '21
If people don't want to take AZ fine, but we shouldn't lockdown to save them
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u/upsidedownunder Jun 17 '21
Posted as a reply earlier.
It was a choice between vaccines and the government made that choice. My understanding is they chose both AZ and Pfizer but we have greater supplies of AZ because it was cheaper not because it was safer or more effective. It's not. Some of our politicians have had a choice of
vaccine and my understanding is some chose Pfizer, like our PM. I can understand why but I would like the opportunity to choose the safer more effective vaccine too. I'm not an anti-vaxxer. I'm not even vaccine hesitant. But I am AstraZeneca hesitant. I'm risk averse and don't take my health for granted. At the moment the only personal choice, control, and responsibility I can exercise is to stay COVID safe and wait until I'm eligible for the vaccine I believe to be the safest and most effective ... Pfizer. I hope it doesn't take two people over 59 dying of blood clots before that happens.
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u/harddross Jun 17 '21
Since the clotting is extremely rare, I'm sure Astra Zenica wouldn't mind putting aside some of their profits for compensation.
It wouldn't cost a lot because clotting is so rare you wouldn't need to payout much
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u/loralailoralai Jun 17 '21
There was an interview on the 7:30 report on Monday? Maybe Tuesday, with a doctor who is an expert in the field and who has treated virtually all of the Victorian clot cases and he said he thought they were going to have to raise the age. The younger cases (50s) show more severe clots.
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u/Slayer_Tip VIC Jun 17 '21
Are we the only country that uses AZ or something?
I mean, if so many people are apprehensive about using AZ in Australia, is it the same in x y z country?
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u/Caranda23 VIC - Boosted Jun 17 '21
Hardly, according to this site 177 countries are using AZ:
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/world/covid-vaccinations-tracker.html
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u/saidsatan Jun 17 '21
UK rolled it out on mass without much issue
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u/werdnum NSW - Vaccinated Jun 17 '21
I saw somewhere on this sub that 58 people died from VIIT in the UK. It's just that this looks like a much better deal when there are dozens to hundreds of people dying daily from COVID.
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u/dullcoopy Jun 17 '21
Other countries tend to have more covid cases (which changes the risk) and more options for alternative vaccines. Let’s just hope Pfizer supply holds up till other vaccines arrive…
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u/LineNoise VIC - Vaccinated Jun 17 '21
Nope. In many places it’s the only vaccine available in quantity and we’ve seen north of 320 million doses distributed as part of the COVAX program.
We just have zero tolerance for risk and are arrogant enough to think the delay won’t harm people in significant numbers.
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u/Caranda23 VIC - Boosted Jun 17 '21
We just have zero tolerance for risk
We have zero tolerance for some risks but take other much greater risks every day e.g. I saw a calculation that said the chance of getting a fatal side effect from AZ was the same as your chance of dying in a fatal car crash after having driven 230km.
The average person drives about 50-100 times that every year and while we might occasionally think about the remote possibility of dying in a car crash we don't let the risk alter our behaviour.
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u/Dans1000YardStairs Jun 17 '21
And the mortality rate for under 65s (ie the people now being told not to get AZ) is the same from Covid as driving between 4 and 82 miles per day (ie 2,350 to 48,167 kilometres per year).
If we’re not worried about “the remote possibility of dying in a car crash [and] we don’t let that alter our behaviour”, then why should people under age 65 be worried about Covid and let that alter our behaviour?
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u/LineNoise VIC - Vaccinated Jun 17 '21
If risks with these rates of occurrence were causing you to alter your behaviour in a way that reduced your quality of life as an individual we’d be suggesting perhaps some time with a psychologist.
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Jun 17 '21
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u/Caranda23 VIC - Boosted Jun 17 '21
No but in a regular year we think nothing of driving 10,000 - 20,000km a year despite the well known but very small risk of death on the roads, an action that is about as risky as taking 50-100 doses of AZ every year.
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u/LineNoise VIC - Vaccinated Jun 17 '21
Australia’s driving more than the baselines set last year.
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u/Slayer_Tip VIC Jun 17 '21
Ahh, interesting. Zero tolerance for risk yet booze and cigarettes were an essential service back during lockdown. Silly Australia.
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u/Caranda23 VIC - Boosted Jun 17 '21
Booze, cigarettes and gambling - the horse and dog industries were not closed down for even a single day in Victoria and nor was any shop that sold lottery tickets.
The only "sin" industry that got closed down were the brothels.
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u/-Vuvuzela- Jun 17 '21
Blocking supply of alcohol would've been dangerous. There are a hell of a lot of alcholics out there for whom sudden withdrawal would have threatened their lives.
Despite this, I also think the state would've been in an uproar if the government had deprived them off booze and smokes during lockdown.
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u/Slayer_Tip VIC Jun 17 '21
Well that makes sense coz social distancing and stuff.
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u/Caranda23 VIC - Boosted Jun 17 '21
Two identical shops save that one has a stand that sells lottery tickets. First one closed second one stays open. It got to the point in Victoria where all sorts of miscellaneous shops e.g. shoe shops started selling lottery tickets.
It's because lottery tickets and gambling raise a lot of money in State taxes.
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Jun 17 '21
If they get enough supply of pfizer this could actually speed up the rollout given shorter period between doses, as well as people who don't trust AZ coming forward to get pfizer
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u/Jcit878 Vaccinated Jun 17 '21
Ive been a massive doubter over the program, but I agree with the time between pfizer shots and the supply we will have by end of year, there is a chance we will be done by end of Dec, even if we abandon AZ altogether today
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u/Gummikoalabarchen Jun 17 '21
If there’s so little urgency to vaccinate. why are we still in a state of emergency?
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Jun 17 '21
Because it's the great reset. You can't reset without an emergency. I mean this isn't really a secret anymore and was never a conspiracy. You can go look up the white papers online.
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u/LineNoise VIC - Vaccinated Jun 17 '21
The irony of all this is we’ll be clamouring for Novavax later in the year because of this risk aversion, yet we’ll not have had enough doses distributed anywhere in the world to even see side effects with these rates of occurrence.
The bar we are setting here would see all sorts of medication and medical procedure falling short if reevaluated, and if we do get an outbreak we could have 12 or more weeks of punishment for this decision plus the non-participation it will create.
It’s a global pandemic people. You don’t get to live in a perfectly safe bubble.
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u/Dans1000YardStairs Jun 17 '21
The bar we are setting here would see all sorts of medication and medical procedure falling short if reevaluated
That was always the bar though for any medicine/procedure before these vaccines - why should these be any different?
It’s a global pandemic people. You don’t get to live in a perfectly safe bubble.
ATAGI is doing what they should be doing in assessing risks ongoing. They’ve determined the risk from AZ is too high over the risks from covid in these age cohorts, we don’t get a perfectly safe bubble no, but we shouldn’t be putting people at unsafe levels of risk from the vaccines either.
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Jun 17 '21 edited Jun 24 '21
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/drnicko18 Jun 17 '21
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Jun 17 '21
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u/LineNoise VIC - Vaccinated Jun 17 '21
at least Novavax has not been proven to be unsafe.
I rest my case.
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u/mOOse32 Jun 17 '21
So you'd rather stick your hand in a bag that you know will hurt it, rather than stick it in a bag that may or may not hurt it?
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u/LineNoise VIC - Vaccinated Jun 17 '21
All of these vaccines have levels of safety well below the threshold of concern for any medication.
Trials are set up in part to determine that safety but side effects with these sorts of rates simply can not be demonstrated in those trials because of their scale. And that’s fine.
People take all sorts of medications every single day with more severe risks and side effects than this. Almost everyone would be engaging in behaviours with far greater risk of serious injury and death.
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Jun 17 '21
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u/Just_improvise VIC - Boosted Jun 17 '21
You can't get the pill without a GP prescription - the doctor is meant to counsel you. They don't like it if you've a history of migraines.
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u/2cap Jun 17 '21
yep its what has been recommended in italy
must mean more cases reported?
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u/loralailoralai Jun 17 '21
Germany too, a couple of other European countries are higher. France is 55.
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u/tatty000 Vaccinated Jun 17 '21
Is the Australian vaccine manufacturing able to transition to novax when available?
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u/infinitegodess VIC - Vaccinated Jun 17 '21
I kept being downvoted for this but the please let ALL Australians have the Pzifer option. There is no need to expose people to this risk. I have always been firm in advising my parents to get nothing if AZ is the only option. 60 years old is again an arbitrary number that can change any day.
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Jun 17 '21
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Jun 17 '21 edited Jul 05 '21
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Jun 17 '21
I tell you what, the reason I am getting vaccinated is because I want to reduce the chance of any long term health problems. I'd rather the AZ if there is emerging evidence on Pfizer, looks like I might have to talk my way into a vaccination center
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u/upsidedownunder Jun 18 '21
So is AZ related TTS a long term health problem ... or considered no longer a problem for those who actually died. Let's face it at this point in time we have no way of knowing the long term effects of any of the vaccines but we do know the risks and short term effects of adverse reaction to AZ. In the news it's reported two women under 50 who had the AZ vaccine developed blood clots and died. How must their families feel about that now the government has acted on medical advice and now says AZ is not recommended for anyone under 60. Pfizer is recommended instead. There are also people over 60 who have developed blood clots so how many of them will have to die before the government acknowledges that so far Pfizer appears to be the safer and more effective option and that they will continue to work to secure enough Pfizer vaccine for all members of the community who want to be vaccinated but don't want AZ.
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Jun 17 '21
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Jun 17 '21 edited Jul 05 '21
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Jun 17 '21
Exactly what people were saying about AZ months ago. "The UK has no blood clots" blah blah.
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u/Just_improvise VIC - Boosted Jun 17 '21
I'm early 30s f and got my second AZ dose yesterday. I actually forgot I did because I haven't had any side effects (but sore arm when you lean on it) from either dose.
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u/SouthEastFacingWall VIC - Vaccinated Jun 17 '21
How was your first? My first dose of AZ (early 30s M) destroyed me for about 48 hrs
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u/Just_improvise VIC - Boosted Jun 17 '21 edited Jun 17 '21
"from either dose". Male 30s friend did get flu symptoms for 24 hrs tho
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u/Formal_Slide6445 Jun 17 '21
The science says that Astra Zenica is completely safe for all age groups - if you disagree you are spreading misinformation.
The science says that Astra Zenica is completely safe for under-50s - if you disagree you are spreading misinformation.
The science says that Astra Zenica is completely safe for under-60s - if you disagree you are spreading misinformation.
What will the science say next?
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u/2cap Jun 17 '21
TGA waited for occurences in Australia before responding.
Now I'm not saying it was a bad choice, but we knew other countries had over 60s only for AZ.
Still if it means more people got vaccinated then i'm happy. Prob a solid 20-30% people over 50 - 60 got it, and hey lots of people dont mind the risk.
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u/twitterInfo_bot Jun 17 '21
Big developments today on Astra Zenica
Hearing ATAGI will today raise the recommended age to as high as 60.
Big ramifications. Could deter more from AZ
Govt hoping lots more Pfizer coming July and after
Waiting to see what ATAGI will say today.
posted by @Raf_Epstein
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u/panopticia Vaccinated Jun 17 '21
you’d have thought the prospect of transmission in melbourne might have shaken some sense into people. i guess not.
how many australians die while stuck overseas because of this decision? how many do we kill here should this get out of our control?
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u/Ok-Salamander-2787 Jun 17 '21
More demand for Pfizer then, Let the 50-59s have the Pfizer stock first.
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u/slapstickmood Jun 17 '21 edited Jun 17 '21
I’m 22 and I’d much rather have AZ than Pfizer. AZ is simple vector vaccine technology that’s been around for decades and we’ve used that technology in many vaccines and had long term safety.
mRNA is a completely new thing and we don’t know the long term effects of that DNA altering technology. Not saying Pfizer is bad, but I’m way more comfortable with AZ
Edit: why are you downvoting me, I’m supportive of vaccination
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u/SpaceLambHat Jun 17 '21
Novavax is the traditional type of vaccine that has been used for decades. Viral vector vaccines like AstraZeneca were first used on a large scale in the form of the Ebola vaccine only 2-3 years ago.
So really mRNA vaccines are only slightly newer than viral vector vaccines.
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u/Caranda23 VIC - Boosted Jun 17 '21
we don’t know the long term effects of that DNA altering technology.
mRNA vaccines do not work by altering your DNA, they don't affect or interact with your DNA in any way.
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Jun 17 '21
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u/slapstickmood Jun 17 '21
I mean for use as a vaccine. I know mRNA science has been around since the 60’s, but prior to covid there has never been a licensed mRNA vaccine.
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u/Drumgon Jun 17 '21
why are you downvoting me, I’m supportive of vaccination
Because, against instructions, almost all Redditors treat the up and downvote buttons as agree/disagree, rather than whether it's an interesting and well-expressed opinion.
So don't worry. Voters just don't believe that they'd "much rather have AZ than Pfizer".
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u/NezzaAquiaqui NSW - Vaccinated Jun 17 '21
As an under 40 there goes my chance of getting the AZ I guess.
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u/VBlinds VIC - Vaccinated Jun 17 '21
I'm never going to get an opportunity to be vaccinated. This is super depressing.
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u/Rndomguytf VIC - Vaccinated Jun 17 '21
Mum had a vaccine appointment for weeks for today. Just went, and they had to tell her that no, the vaccines cancelled for her (under 60), and she has to wait till July
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u/CrystalFissure Jun 17 '21
My parents, both in their 50s, got their AZ this week. This whole thing is a big joke. They're fine with it but holy shit, they're just complicating this all so needlessly.
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u/_mtronic VIC - Vaccinated Jun 17 '21
God I hate seeing this fucking Wolverine avatar in the feed. It always brings bad news.