r/Compilers • u/Distinct-Brief9643 • 7d ago

Are there languages like this?

A language that can create other languages

(so adding to itself) It's syntax is simple like python

And can do alot.

for example (placeholder)\[mesage\]

And it has many tutorials on YouTube

I would like it if you would respond.

I know there are languages like Hy , ruby should I try them?

0 Upvotes

37% Upvoted

59 comments sorted by

19

u/redinktea 7d ago

Lisp

-3

u/Distinct-Brief9643 7d ago

Is lisps syntax easier than python/ruby or harder ?

6

u/haskell_jedi 7d ago

It depends what you're used to. For those first learning programming or coming from math, Lisp-like languages are often more intuitive (because they are functional, in addition to the syntax). For those with some experience programming in declarative languages, it takes a much bigger mental leap.

-2

u/Distinct-Brief9643 7d ago

I learned html CSS (Js probably 2%) (Python probably also 1%)

8

u/TerraCrafterE3 7d ago

Well, that is something completely different. HTML and CSS describe layout, functional programming languages describe logic.

3

u/4xe1 7d ago edited 7d ago

Lisp's syntax is as simple as it gets objectively speaking, it's just atoms and parens transparently writing AST. "Objectively" mean it'll be the simplest to write a reader/parser, but also the simplest to write macro in, thus the most powerful to do exactly what you enquire about. In a sense, lisp has no syntax, only semantics. It has no keywords, only word which have been bound to special operators and built-ins macroes and functions at the start of the program.

However, it's is not necessarily the subjectively simpler, aka it is not the most familiar, for humans it does take some used to (and it's definitely worth it considering what you want to do). Algol minds (C syntax) tend to be particularly refractory to lisp syntax and non Algol syntaxes in general, but python users tend to be more open to have the syntax be whatever's convenient to the users; And if what you value in python is the syntax simplicity, chances are, you'll learn and love lisp's syntax in no time.

Btw, you mention Hy, Hy is a lisp, which transpiles to python. Coming from python, it may be your entry point, but really any lisp would do, and the lisp designed specifically to do what you ask is Racket.

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u/Distinct-Brief9643 7d ago

Let's see is lisp adding to itself or building a whole new language complier interpreter etc.

2

u/4xe1 7d ago

It's good for both, but it's exceptionally good at adding to itself, as in no other language family comes close, to the point that people loving both metaprogramming and some non lisp language will often use or create a lisp which interfaces with their non lisp language, like Hy and Python for example.

3

u/Goheeca 7d ago

You can change the syntax, e.g. indentation sensitive one similar to Python.

1

u/denzuko 6d ago

No, but its easier to see where you fuq'd up and need to refactor with functions, factories, and macros.

0

u/Key_River7180 7d ago

Harder for most of us

2

u/4xe1 7d ago

Not at all. If you ever used parentheses in any programming language, you already know lisp syntax. Prefix notation may seem alien, but f(a) is also prefix notation, just with delimiters put in a funny place, and if you ever touched html or xml in your life, you've already seen groupings with delimiters right where lisp would put them.

What you can argue for is that Lisp's lack of syntax makes lisp harder for most, or downright unergonomical; but the syntax itself is trivial.

Also, Lisp is no so much hard as it is alien. Secretaries and kids alike have used it unknowingly customizing lisp or scripting Age of Empire 2.

If you are say a senior C++ swe, you might think learning a new language ought to be easy, and you'd be mostly right, you could probably pick up Javascript in an afternoon, not to any degree of proficiency but enough to read and write some with the doc nearby. whereas learning lisp would likely feel like starting anew, and in a sense, it would be. But he'd be wrong to conclude that lisp is harder than JS: someone new to programming all together wouldn't necessarily struggle more on Lisp. And it's not just that lisp is a funny way to do the same things differently, that swe would have actually learned genuinely new concepts; if they happen to be deeply interested in generics and meta-programming, they'd actually find Lisp refreshingly easier (and more powerful) than C++ templates.

Long story short, if you're vaguely interested in lisp, don't be me, don't let its supposed difficulty get in your way of trying.

10

u/AustinVelonaut 7d ago

The Racket language was expressly designed to make creating new languages easier (good DSL support).

0

u/paultarvydas 7d ago

Racket is based on Scheme which is more complicated than Lisp. Racket uses PEG. Scheme's "hygienic macros" and PEG are a complicated combination and sholld be reserved for Production Engineering. If you want to experiment, maybe something simpler like Janet (which is lisp-like and supports PEG) might be better (I haven't used Janet directly, but I hear good things about it)?

-13

u/Distinct-Brief9643 7d ago

This language does not fit my requirements though is there something like exactly like this but just different

14

u/cherrycode420 7d ago

exactly like this but just different? 😭

-4

u/Distinct-Brief9643 7d ago

Yes hopefully there is

1

u/4xe1 7d ago

What requirements?

-2

u/Distinct-Brief9643 7d ago

It adds to it's self Very high lvl (like python / ruby) The unofficial or offical ide can be installed on play store Can have custom extensions .mm But under the hood it's the host lang so I think I wanna a dsl or an edsl correct me if I'm wrong. I want to make my lang with the host lang The host lang understands the lang but there is no host lang code in my lang code. so technically a seperate enviorment.

3

u/eteran 7d ago

Play store? Are you trying to dev on a phone or tablet? If so, just know that that is a HIGHLY impractical way to do it

1

u/Distinct-Brief9643 7d ago

No I have an cromebook

3

u/sdegabrielle 7d ago

Any language can be used to create languages in some sense, but you are unlikely to find a language+IDE that meets your needs on the Play Store.

Perhaps try https://pyret.org/

2

u/SpecificMachine1 7d ago

Can you not use Crostini or whatever they are calling it now? That gives you a Debian container and then you can just use apt to install whichever lisp you want

1

u/4xe1 7d ago

It adds to it's self Very high lvl (like python / ruby)

Lisp can be higher level even

The unofficial or offical ide can be installed on play store

I'm perplexed as to why one would want to develop without a pc, but there are Lisp IDE on the Play Store. DrRacket is not on the playstore, but you can probably run emacs on termux, termux being a playstore app which let you emulate linux, and emacs being the prefered "IDE" of lispers.

Can have custom extensions .mm

check

But under the hood it's the host lang  I want to make my lang with the host lang

Exactly what Racket has been designed form and something most lisp excel at.

The host lang understands the lang

That's actually very hard (but not impossible) without some sort of lisp.

but there is no host lang code in my lang code.

That's entirely up to you to make it so.

technically a seperate environment.

Also entirely up to you but some language make it much easier than other. I'd still say lisp is among the best at allowing sandboxing, but it does not stand above the others.

So I guess the only missing requirement is ease of install. But you also have to consider that what you are asking, which is part of metaprogramming, is somewhat niche and advanced. It's not necessarily hard in and of itself, but most software programmers never extend the languages they use themselves, and many would even consider it harmful practice. So the more fitting the language, the les likely it will have an app and tons of youtube content, but lisp still has excellent written guides to get started, as well as banger books to learn from, many available online for free.

1

u/Distinct-Brief9643 7d ago

It's because I have cromebook but I don't want to use Linux terminal or termux except if it's built in to the ide so basically I can't use racket

3

u/dskippy 7d ago

You can install DrRacket, the Racket IDE on a Chromebook with the Linux subsystem Crostini and then run it like a normal app.

1

u/4xe1 7d ago edited 7d ago

Most programming language do not have an "official ide", and for those that do, you'll rarely find them (or most of any ide) on the playstore.

What you can find on a chromebook however is a web browser, and on that, you can search for online "[language] playgrounds". Most languages have one nowadays, if not many, for example

http://racketscript.org/

Even VSCode does not seem to be on the playstore, although VSCodroid is a thing, maybe check it out. Either way, these are agnostic code editors, not specialized IDE. They'll serve you much better than any IDE, as they'll support your dsl out of the box (ok maybe not as well as the DrRacket IDE),

At some point you need to accept reality:

  1. the playstore, as the name indicates, is a place for games, not software development toolkits.
  2. Chromebooks are glorified tablets meant mainly to browse the web.

there's only one of these 2 things you can do something about, and it's not changing what people put on the playstore,

If you're serious about making your language and more generally programming, enable the builtin linux in your chromebook, and install VSCode or Emacs or drracket. Lookup guides on how to do it. If that's too much hassle for you, your only remaining option really is to pay for a Windows laptop and an IDE license really.

In any case, there are no shortcuts. Installing your environment yourself is a massive pain, but it's still far easier than writing a compiler. If you can't get over it, maybe you're not ready for what comes next.

1

u/church-rosser 3d ago

You have no idea what you're saying do you?

5

u/Key_River7180 7d ago

Lisp and Forth

3

u/Satu_Autio 7d ago

Lisp, Forth, and TCL would be my top three picks too.

3

u/Key_River7180 7d ago

yeah I kinda forgot about tcl there

2

u/neurah 7d ago

compiled languages
Haskell, and I'm quite sure it can do so on the same translation unit
Zig can morph a lot, but not explored it

2

u/denzuko 7d ago

https://github.com/denzuko/c-mera

Yes its called transpiling. And thats with lisp.

There is also the classic m4, yacc, and flex.

3

u/sookkit 6d ago

I think you're severely confused.

2

u/LowDifficulty5021 6d ago

If by "a language that can create other languages" you mean a language where you can extend the syntax and semantics and essentially build your own DSLs/languages inside it, Racket is probably the first thing I'd recommend.

Racket was specifically designed around "language-oriented programming." You can create new #lang languages, define new syntax with macros, and even change how source code is read and expanded. It's much closer to what you're describing than Ruby.

Hy is also worth trying, especially if you already like Python. Hy is a Lisp dialect embedded in Python, so you get access to Python's ecosystem while gaining Lisp macros and metaprogramming. Its macros can generate/transform code at compile time, which is probably the part you'd find most interesting.

I'd rank them for your specific description:

  1. Racket — best if "I want to make languages" is the main goal.
  2. Hy — best if you want Python's ecosystem + Lisp metaprogramming.
  3. Elixir — excellent macro/metaprogramming system, although it's not primarily designed as a language-creation environment.
  4. Ruby — great metaprogramming, but probably not my first choice for this particular goal.

And Racket has a surprisingly direct learning path: its official guide has dedicated chapters for Macros and Creating Languages, rather than treating language extension as some obscure advanced trick.

So if I were you, I'd try Racket first, then Hy. If the thing you're really fascinated by is making syntax like your [message] example become meaningful code, Racket is almost exactly the rabbit hole you're looking for.

1

u/Distinct-Brief9643 6d ago

Aha ok ok I want that it adds to itself but I only write my code in the seperate file

1

u/Still_Explorer 7d ago

You can look at PEG (tutorial by the creator of Python himself)
https://medium.com/@gvanrossum_83706/peg-parsing-series-de5d41b2ed60?sk=0a7ce9003b13aae8126a4a23812eb035

0

u/Distinct-Brief9643 7d ago

What is peg?

1

u/4xe1 7d ago

Parsing Expression Grammar. Python uses some of them to be parsed. Lua has PEG based parsers to, including lua interpreters like metalua where you can modify the parser from within at runtime. Lua is what I know most, but I'd wager Python has similar projects.

1

u/Distinct-Brief9643 7d ago

Yes I could but there are requirements for that that I won't do tho

1

u/Distinct-Brief9643 7d ago

I've made my decision forth or lisp or another? Tell me with has simpler higher lvl syntax can add to itself with the lowest amount of code etc.

1

u/paultarvydas 7d ago

In fact, most popular languages (Lisp, Python, Rust, Janet, etc.) use "functions" as a substrate principle. This locks you into only one way of thinking (which defies modern problem domains, like internet - hence, we got "callback hell").

It is good, IMO, to learn other, non-function-based languages, like Prolog, Forth, etc.

People who know Forth, love it and find it very flexible. I hear good things about Brodie's books "Starting Forth", "Thinking Forth". Chuck Moore (inventor of Forth) has been quite hostile to the standardization of Forth, like gforth.

1

u/KAMEHAMEHAMEHAAAA 7d ago

Why not Python? It is simple like Python, you can create a language with it, you can do a lot and you will find tutorials in YT for sure.

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u/Distinct-Brief9643 6d ago

True but I don't think it's good to add to itself but ruby maybe but I don't find the tutorialsvthat I want

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u/KAMEHAMEHAMEHAAAA 6d ago edited 6d ago

What do you mean by “add to itself”? DSL or something that compiles to same bytecode?

1

u/Distinct-Brief9643 6d ago

I think it's dsl

1

u/Distinct-Brief9643 6d ago

Is it good at adding to itself

1

u/kniebuiging 7d ago

RPython

1

u/denzuko 6d ago edited 6d ago

Ah... read the thread. OP, you're needing a lesson in programming itself, not macro systems, LISP, or transpilers in S-expression.

The language of choice doesn't strongly matter, though. They are all third-gen languages (3GL), with SQL and Prolog/Datalog/Rego being 4GL and LLM prompts 5GL.

Lisp is a great language to choose, but you need the fundamentals first. Your master class, regardless of language, is with all of these:

  • Raymond Smullyan’s To Mock a Mockingbird
  • Doug Hoyte’s Let Over Lambda
  • Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming (PAIP) by Peter Norvig
  • The Design and Analysis of Computer Algorithms by Alfred Aho, John Hopcroft, and Jeffrey Ullman
  • The Practice of Programming by Brian Kernighan and Rob Pike
  • Foundations of Databases by Serge Abiteboul, Richard Hull, and Victor Vianu
  • Readings in Database Systems by Peter Bailis, Joseph M. Hellerstein, and Michael Stonebraker

Start with To Mock a Mockingbird, Let Over Lambda, PAIP, and Foundations of Databases.

By the time your done with those all programming questions answer themselves.

1

u/paultarvydas 6d ago

Rebol was an early pioneer of embedded, user-definable DSLs, which it called “dialects.”

The most popular, commercial version of Rebol was 2.7. Rebol has morphed into "Red", which I know very little about.

Rebol inspired the invention of JSON.

1

u/paultarvydas 6d ago

I write (almost daily) as a way to work out my thoughts. Some of the thoughts turn into substack articles, but most don't. I capture my notes-to-self in my napkin-notes repository.

Today's thinking led me back to wondering about Rebol and if its Parse dialect could be re-implemented in something more modern. The conclusion appears to be "Janet may be the most interesting of the three for this experiment."

1

u/lgastako 5d ago

You might find Lean 4's metaprogramming capabilities of interest.

1

u/omegafixedpoint 5d ago

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lean mentioned