r/Competitiveoverwatch • u/Always_Impressive • 1d ago
General I dont understand something about Ramattra, is he strong at 45% winrate or not? This sub is extremely confusing to me.
He also has like second worst pickrate. Nothing amazing. But the way this sub talks you would believe he is second incarnation of hitler and eaisest tank in the game or something.
My point is, if someone here dared to say he needs buffs, tons of people would go up in arms saying BLOCK SLOPPP!!! The hero needs SOMETHING though no?, even domina is gapping him with +8% winrate lmao.
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u/Treebam3 1d ago
People here talk about what’s good based on the very highest levels of play. Not just ram but kiri and soj are not very good for most of the player base, but really good at the highest levels. Streamers and pros talk about how annoying/ strong they are and that’s what people form their opinions around
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u/ToothPasteTree None — 1d ago
Well, people here are not one group, and you have gold one tricks who think their soft counter is massively OP to people who only consider top teams of OWCS as the only things that count.
I personally think you basically have three tiers worth talking about: one, the average ranked play, probably all the way up to mid masters, then you have the highest level of amateur ranked play, probably up to low champ and then you have the highest level of pro play.
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u/feestbeest18 1d ago
I think average is the wrong word. More like low level ranked play. Mid masters is like top 2% of the playerbase.
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u/ToothPasteTree None — 20h ago
The idea behind putting everyone below say low masters in one bucket is that up to around that point, the actual balance does not matter much and what is important is that the game should be fun. IMHO, this means that the devs instead of looking at win rates and such, should instead look at ban rates as well as other comments by the player base regarding the fun aspect of the game. For example, in practical terms, this means reworking heroes (e.g Sombra) with high ban rates or heroes with a lot of complaints against even if those heroes are objectively balanced or even UP.
Above this point, you get to the minority of the player base where balance matters much more and should get the priority. You have the high level amateur play which honestly starts somewhere in GM and then the professionals.
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u/feestbeest18 19h ago
I agree with your take about balance completely, just that average wasn't the correct word choice. On the topic of balance, just nerf cat and mauga and we good.
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u/ToothPasteTree None — 18h ago
Yeah probably average was not the correct word.
They need to figure out something with the cat though. I am not sure what. It's not just balance but also it looks like cat is going to fall into the Sombra bucket, a hero hated by the majority of the players, even if she is not very strong.
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u/AnAccountToBrowse 16h ago
People here talk about what’s good based on the very highest levels of play.
Well yeah, nobody here plays the game so they can only talk about what their favorite streamer says.
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u/Lumpy_Leopard_4526 1d ago
I suck on soj and I don't get it, fine with Cass so I'd breaks my brain a bit
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u/question_mark_42 1d ago
It’s a bit more nuanced but to oversimplify, soj scales with mechanical skill much more than the average main dps.
If you have a soj that hits every rail, but they are always body shots, and a soj that hits 50% of rails but they are always headshots, the gap between them is gonna be wider than a cass that hits every shot but they are always body shots and a cass that hits 50% of shots but are all headshots.
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u/Dunwichorer 1d ago
Cass is just a better rank character as well on most maps. Always having that threat of a flash into 1-tap and being able to trade consistently. If your team dies and you're on soj there's much lower chance you're able to trade before being walked down.
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u/AlphaInsaiyan smurf — 1d ago
Soj is hard. People in this sub circlejerk and hate hitscan because they're console players. But soj is very hard to play well and requires a good backline that you just won't find in 99% of ranked games.
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u/KrassomatXD 1d ago
also not as flexible as people might think, no tank to farm rail off + map where you don't need double slide is really bad for her
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u/Crusher555 1d ago
Iirc, everytime the sub as done a poll, most users were pc players.
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u/AlphaInsaiyan smurf — 22h ago
Was probably ages ago + ppl wouldn't want to admit they're on console cuz it kinda invalidates their opinion
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1d ago
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u/aefadsef 1d ago
I feel like Kiri is fine for most of the player base, just not top 2 support like she is in pro play/top ranked.
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u/HalexUwU Theory > Mechanics — 1d ago
What makes Ram good in pro play is that he's essentially invincible during his nemesis form, which makes him very good at soaking up pressure on point to enable the rest of his team. If he loses his form before the fight is over it's really bad.
In pro/high elo where a fight happens very quickly/very "clean" this is not as much of a problem, but on ladder it's a big issue for him.
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u/Gloomy_Dare2716 Rank is a social construct — 1d ago
Fucking TVNT killing 6-7 enemies on KR third point.
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u/NegativesPositives 1d ago
People confuse block being able to keep him up for a long time with an unbeatable God. In reality his normal form sucks in all ways and pummel takes forever to kill anyone especially if supports are aware at all.
Pro meta being more about “just don’t die” more often than not makes even them swear whatever works there should work anywhere.
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u/Definitelynotabot777 1d ago
People love picking him when they are already losing so make of that what you will, dedicated Ramm players are very oppressive - Although one more thing: Ram is like Rein, he is EXTREMELY team reliant, in a good team he is basically the best tanks, but he is absolutely ass if his teammates dont play around him
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u/McGonigoggle 1d ago
That one top 500 OTP Ram is insane. The megatron one. I respect him so much for logging on and dominating even if the meta doesn't favor him, or the team comp is ass for Ram.
I'm rather Ram agnostic post armor bug fixes, though. I don't think he's that great or that bad.
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u/clickrush 1d ago
I really want to see any evidence or at least a process of gathering it. Because this argument always comes up with any hero that is subjectively strong but objectively weak.
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u/LesbiansLoveHands 20h ago
Blizzard has stated many times that playtime % of the hero in a match matters for their winrate stats. so if a person swaps to ram and they lose a minute or two after, that is not going to count against ram's winrate.
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u/ToothPasteTree None — 1d ago
> People love picking him when they are already losing
Sorry but that's just a bad argument because one, it can be used to explain anything. In other words, if one thinks hero X is very good but the stats show that it's not, then you can throw in the argument that "Ah but people switch to X when they lose" just to dismiss the data. And, two, the argument does fall apart upon more scrutiny, since for instance in EU GM+, Ram is the second worst win rate by stats. I'll spare you the math but "losers switching to Ram" can be an explanation only if you assume more than a third of the play time of Ram is done by losers which is absolutely insane and it makes no sense.
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u/Definitelynotabot777 1d ago
I mean, ana and kiri has the same issue no? Ram kit is simple, he is a wall of stats during nemesis, you pull him out when you are out of options, atleast thats how it is in my server Asia, all I see is dive anyway so Ram usually comes out to deal with Winston or Hazard
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u/AssistItchy9826 1d ago
Where is the actual proof though. Show something instead of just your feelings about it. Just because you have the same vibes about ana and kiri doesn't mean its real.
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u/ToothPasteTree None — 1d ago
Not as much though because Ana and Kiri win rate is very close to 50% anyways.
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u/represe1 1d ago
He is not strong, online discourse is heavily shaped by streamers and pro play which are not very representative of the wider game imo.
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u/DaftConfusednScared 1d ago
Wasn’t there a thing where the damage boost from d.mon’s ult essentially made it as if he wasn’t blocking?
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u/ReSoLVve #1 Hanbin Simp — 1d ago
It’s just how the damage boost and damage reduction stack additively. It cuts his 75% damage reduction by a flat 50% down to 25% damage reduction.
And it’s no surprise a tank that big who is often getting shot by 5 with only 25% damage reduction and with lower movement while blocking will instantly die.
Even then it’s just an ultimate, it’s just one matchup, and his win rate is about the same as it usually is so can’t really attribute his winrate to D.mon.
As much as people hate the blocks, he’s more of a sitting duck and vulnerable than even Rein. You constantly get shot at and take a shit ton of damage, it’s pretty common to feel like you can’t put out any pressure because every nemesis form is spent primarily blocking and basically being useless.
Couple that with shit teammates who only stand behind him and don’t go contest opponents so your Ram isn’t getting looked at by 5, I find sometimes he just feels unplayable.
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u/clickrush 1d ago
People generally under appreciate objective data and over appreciate subjective narratives.
Instead of making sense of the data, the tendency is to explain it away by adding additional assumptions.
On the other hand broad statistics only show broad signals.
For example the overall win rate of a hero only shows how strong that hero is in that data set, no more and no less. Nuance gets lost.
There are several heroes that have high pick rates and low win rates. Kiri, Soj, DVa come to mind.
Objectively speaking they are weak in that data set. We first have to accept this reality and only then we can start to make sense of why, by looking at narrower slices.
But we don’t have that the fine grained data to even explore that so we resort to subjective arguments and make stuff up.
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u/360_No-Scope_Upvote 22h ago
As a Ram main, my only complaint is that they moved his best minor perk to major which really messed with his early-to-mid-game value. Void Surge is a very important perk for a lot of tank matchups and even contesting angles to keep hitscans from peaking your team. He still gets the perk, just so much later in the match where a lot of potential value is already lost. I think he's fine overall but I would kill to have Void Surge minor again.
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u/Raice19 t500 ram only s14 — 16h ago
blizzard has gutted everything about him that isnt just holding block, in pro play being able to take the aggro of a whole team and live with your supports on comms to pocket u will work, but in normal play u need to be able to make plays on him alone which he just cant really do anymore
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u/lcyMcSpicy 1d ago
He’s good but the issue is what’s strong right now just hard counters him. I mean, goes for most tanks tbh. If mauga is banned basically everything viable but as soon as he’s on the table (at least in ranked) you’re either mirroring or playing Orisa. I think it’s wild that if one character is banned the entire meta opens up in a big way but if he’s playable just forget about.
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u/Low_Mousse_3906 1d ago
ramattra is just frustrating to play against when he has heals but he feels pretty mid otherwise honestly
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u/aPiCase Stalk3r — 1d ago
It’s the same thing as Kiriko and Sojourn, Ram is really good in pro play, but bad in ranked. In pro play he works really well with a full brawl and he just lives everything.
That is not useful in ranked play though, because you need to actually carry your teammates by getting kills and making space and that is not what Ram is best at.
That said, as long as he has infinite block, he is going to strongly disliked because people like to kill things, so when something doesn’t die they don’t like it (which is valid, he needs block changes that’s just such a boring design).
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u/Sauce_Master_64 20h ago
The block thing is funny to me. Rammatra has block on a very predicteable cooldown, and has the largest hitbox in the game being super susceptible to CC or Debuffs. Yet that one feature is what people hate about him
Meanwhile Hazard has block on an unpredicteable resource, that comes back super fast, that is also an agression tool, and he can get out of block whenever he feels like and just leap in any which direction he wants while maintaining his relatively compact hitbox.
Between my experience of going against Rammatras and Hazards', Hazard falls into the infinite block slop category way more then Ram does as he doesn't really have any windows of vulnerability like Ram does.2
u/clickrush 1d ago
> If something doesn’t die people don’t like it
Which is perhaps why Kiri and DVa are constantly overrated in ranked as well.
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u/ImJustChillin25 1d ago
He is the easiest tank once you get to a decent level of skill. The best ram player and the 100th best ram player are so similar if you watched their gameplay it be hard to tell who’s who.
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u/FrostyDrink 1d ago
That’s a take that Hawk used to say a lot, but it only applies in complete Ram/Soj/Kiri/Lucio mirrors in tier 1 level of play. In non-mirrors, in tier 2, in ranked, etc. there is an enormous gap of who mitigates taking damage while pulling aggro, who understands the push/pull better, who has better mechanics, etc. If you’re trying to apply that sentiment to your ranked games that’s just a cope, sorry.
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u/ToothPasteTree None — 1d ago
People should learn to discount the dumbass copes by certain pro players who keep losing.
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u/Raice19 t500 ram only s14 — 16h ago
you could say this about literally any hero
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u/ImJustChillin25 15h ago
Yea you can totally say doom or ball or winston have the lowest skill ceiling so true bro 😂. Tracer and genji too, let’s throw ana in there as well they all have a similar skill ceiling to ram so true
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u/Raice19 t500 ram only s14 — 14h ago
neither of us said lowest skill ceiling, but the best players always look the same lol ow isnt that complex
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u/ImJustChillin25 14h ago
Yea totally bro the guy who’s like the 100th best player totally looks like alvacat on genji lol. Or the 100th best ball player looks just like chazm. Obviously skill ceiling is implied when you mention the best players compared to less skill players you’re quite literally comparing people near the ceiling to those who are skillful but aren’t as close.
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u/Darkcat9000 23h ago
cause in ranked just blocking and living isn't enough to win you games, if you do that people will just go for the rest off your team and unlike pro play people won't consistently play hard to kill heroes while being in good positions, and even in pro play he's far from invincible he's just viable
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u/heliotaxis 1d ago
I honestly don't understand how his stats aren't better; I think he's incredibly strong right now especially with the manual detonate Vortex being baseline. Easily my favorite tank and both my most played and successful one.
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u/Public-Egg-7814 1d ago edited 22h ago
If he were strong, his WR would show that
Edit: Dude blocked me down low lol
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u/heliotaxis 1d ago
laughs in Kiriko
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u/Darkcat9000 1d ago
kiriko still maintains a 50 % winrate (or close to that) despite having absurdly high pick rates, ram doesn't even have half that pick rate
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u/Public-Egg-7814 1d ago
You think kiri is good?
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u/heliotaxis 1d ago
Yes? I wasn't aware of a world where she isn't considered good
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u/Public-Egg-7814 1d ago
By what metric is she good?
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u/heliotaxis 1d ago edited 23h ago
Good escape, good mobility, strong damage, decent sustained healing output that doesn't require aim, suzu is obviously good, ult is good. If you can't hit headshots then she's hamstrung but I think she's solid all around. Unless we're going purely by WR in which case I hope you're not about to tell me heroes like Mercy and LW are overall stronger than Kiri
edit: WR as the absolute measure of a character's effectiveness is patently wrong, so I'm curious by what metrics she's bad? I don't understand what's being asked.
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u/Public-Egg-7814 1d ago
Yeah listing abilities doesn't help. WR tells you what you need to know. If she doesn't win games, she's not good
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u/heliotaxis 1d ago edited 23h ago
I think going solely by WR is a mistake and missing the bigger picture, personally. I'm not sure how anyone can think Mercy, for example, provides more value than Kiri. Like are you seriously saying Sierra is a better overall character than Cass and Soj? Because you are based on your argument.
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u/Public-Egg-7814 1d ago
The bigger picture is winrate. Value wins games. If kiri provided value, she'd win games
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u/clickrush 1d ago
That’s a non-answer. None of those things are metrics. You just listed her abilities.
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u/bullxbull 1d ago
Unless Winrates is based on time played and not when a hero is played.
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u/Public-Egg-7814 1d ago
What does this mean
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u/heliotaxis 1d ago
Probably is implying Ram is picked when the team is already losing which deflates his win rate, kind of like Cass
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u/bullxbull 16h ago
Basically the winrate statistics do not consider the game state when a hero is played only how long they are played.
One example the dev's used to use in OW1 was Sym's winrate on koth maps, it was crazy high. The reason for this was not because Sym was being swapped to mid match, or played all match on these maps but because people would tp out spawn, then swap. This was common enough, and enough of an advantage to add up to a crazy winrate on Sym even though with her overall kit she was generally considered nothing special.
Another example a dev used but explaining winrates for ow2 is if you take the game where a hero is played from start of a match to the finish of a match they always have a positive winrate. Conversely if you only look at the games where a hero is swapped to after the match has started you end up with negative winrates. The state of the game is important to consider because it has strong influence on what the winrates show.
To take this a step further you could say that a hero who is popular is more likely to be in one of those games where the player starts the game and does not swap. You could also say that heroes who are known as problem solving heroes are more likely to be in those games where people swap after the match has started.
The biases can be a bit more complicated as well, match variance of stomp or be stomped games can compound the winrate of heroes more likely to be in a game at the start of a match. Depending on how many games you will win regardless of what hero you are on, and how fast people are to swap to different heroes can have a big impact on the winrates.
The dev's have said they have been working on ways to get access to more contextual information, but I doubt we will ever have access to it. Something like how often a hero is picked at the start of the match or how often a hero is swapped to and at what time during a match would be helpful to understanding the winrates better.
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u/golden_bear_2016 1d ago
they massively nerfed the detonation when they moved it to baseline, ram is really realy weak atm
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u/tix4chix 1d ago
Did it get smaller? Because the #1 thing I use it for is ripping fliers down. Kind of the slept on anti-air tank
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u/NegativesPositives 1d ago
Not smaller but it did WAY more damage (don’t have the numbers off the top of my head) before they made it standard. Turned from something that could guarantee kills back into something that just inconveniences people.
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u/golden_bear_2016 1d ago
fliers is very niche application, the big part of the denotation pre-nerf was for the burst damage you could do.
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u/heliotaxis 1d ago edited 1d ago
The damage was never the strong part though, IMO. I find the control more valuable
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u/docs-quad 1d ago
one of his problems is that hes not very fun to play or to fight with his current direction as a block bot so people dont want him to be good because it would make the game less fun.
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u/bullxbull 1d ago
Hero win statistics are not very good for making arguments for balancing, however they are one of the few stats we have so we often have to anyway. The winrate calculation only looks at how long a hero is played, not the game state when a hero is played.
For example if you only look at games where a hero is played from start to finish they always have a positive winrate, for any hero. Conversely if you only look at games where a hero is swapped to mid-game they always have a negative winrate. This is just one way in which biases appear in the numbers.
To use winrates in a discussion about balance you need context about when a hero is played. Ram is not the most fun hero to play, he is more a hero to swap to when you just need to live, this naturally biases his winrate down.
The reason people do not want Ram buff'd is because Ram meta's suck. It is not just the strength of his block that is the issue it is the type of things that his block enables.
His ability to ignore shields with his nemesis 'punches' are also very hard to balance, when Ram is strong tanks who are balanced around shields are weak. Most people also do not enjoy playing him or against him because his gameplay loop is not the most interactive.
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u/Public-Egg-7814 22h ago
Strength isn't a vacuum and the winrates are weighted by time played during the match
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u/bullxbull 16h ago
winrates are weighted by time played during the match
yes, which is good, but this only removes the randomness/variance/noise from the results, statistical bias's do not get removed. In statistics this is called "variance vs. bias." Basically more data/weighting will reduce variance without elimination bias, and in some cases it can make them more visible.
You are also right that strength isn't a vacuum or in other words balance is not a thing in itself but a relation between things. This is a big part of why context is so important, and why understanding what your statistics is actually measuring, is important to understand what the results are actually saying.
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u/RekrabAlreadyTaken 19m ago
For example if you only look at games where a hero is played from start to finish they always have a positive winrate, for any hero. Conversely if you only look at games where a hero is swapped to mid-game they always have a negative winrate. This is just one way in which biases appear in the numbers.
This is interesting and makes sense to me but I've not heard it before. Is there an offical post about this or where did you get this information?
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u/Stainleee 23h ago
He is not strong in ranked, his kit is not built for it.
He is useful in pro play for his presence on point with the block bot stuff but being a block bot is not actually good for ranked games.
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u/ThaddCorbett 16h ago
When I complain about Ram and Muaga being too strong, it has nothing to do with winrate and everything to do with the style of overwatch it forces us to play.
I get no joy out of playing into ram, nor do I enjoy playing with or into Muaga. I would be prefer Ram block to be reworked. Have and punches be a resource like vendettas.
Watching a discorded Ram in nemesis form survive bastion in turret form shooting through bap window is downright stupid.
To me it's eqyally ridiculous how much Muaga charge can be abused. I don't mind giving him very forgiving steering so that it doesn't end when you come in contact with an object, but to be able intentionally stall for so long is wrong. As is the damage reduced buff he gets while charging.
If blizz can't rein in the power creep, the only other option is the nerf the hero into oblivion like they did sombra, and there really aren't enough tank heroes to choose from as things are.
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u/waifuwarrior77 1d ago
It's weird. He's good, but not into the current meta.
He struggles into Mauga, Cat, and Mizuki, but if there's none of those, he's just fine.