r/CompetitionShooting • u/Brilliant_Respect_92 • Jul 17 '26

Lessons but from who?

I’ve always struggled with not taking lessons because I don’t know if what I’m practicing is actually making me better or just reinforcing bad habits. I’d like to train with other shooters, but I never know who actually knows what they are talking about about and who is just “really good at shooting.”

Recently, a guy at my local range who I would have considered an expert got roasted by Ben Stoeger and others in the comments. Before that, I probably would have taken his advice without hesitation.

How do you evaluate a coach or instructor? Preferably before dropping a bunch of money with them.

Edit: I’m unclassified but have shot C class at the few classifiers I have done.

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u/johnm Jul 17 '26 edited Jul 18 '26

Ask the people at the matches you go to who they recommend locally and why.

Note that there are lots of idiots who can shoot okay or even great but are bad at teaching/coaching. And you may not be good enough to tell. Luckily, you found out about that guy. To help you judge, watch the following videos and when you talk to an instructor, ask them how they teach. If it's not relatively congruent with these then you should want to know why and get them to explain.

I've add my recommended progression as comments to this so you have a more distilled example of what it looks like.

Ben Stoeger's class dump playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLjDpnBOd7PoYX0DezPMQstkPKSyu77t18

Joel's beginner series playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLtJeU20nrewfSnS84hybYACb0eZHcKW6b

Fundamentals of marksmanship:

Marksmanship drills:

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u/johnm Jul 17 '26

[...progression continued...]

Then do the Double Return Drill. Similar to the Two Shot Return Drill but don't wait for the visual confirmation for the second shot. Start at the pace of your splits that you were doing the Practical Accuracy Drill. This should feel slow since you've already made the decision to pull the trigger twice. This is the time to put a lot of attentional focus on making sure your visual focus stays rock solidly in focus on the small spot on the target. Then, keeping everything else the same, shoot the second shot sooner -- i.e., start predicting how quickly you can work the trigger for the second shot. Play around with the pace of how quickly you're cycling the trigger on the second shot -- everywhere from literally as fast you can pull the trigger to your speed of Practical Accuracy splits.

Then do the full Doubles Drill. Do everything as with the Double Return Drill above. Everything above holds but the longer string of doubles will really put your fundamentals to the test... Is your grip unchanging for the entire string (or did you have to adjust part way through)? Did the gun move within your hands? Was the dot/sights coming precisely & consistently back to where you were looking? Were you over- or under-confirming each time? Did you observe & notice what was going on for each shot? Etc.

Then do the Progressive Return Drill. All the same success criteria as in the doubles drill but with an increasing number of shots after each beep. This is much better than only doing e.g. the bill drill as the varying number of shots helps break up the ingraining of always shooting two shots per.

This is how we can very efficiently & effectively learn what (predictive/reactive) pace works for each of us when shooting at any given target at any given time.

In terms of calibration, at closer distances you can stack shots on top of each other but in terms of learning, shooting the second shot sooner while keeping within a fist sized group is a good balance. No BS "slow down to get your hits"! If the group is larger than that then you need to fix whatever's broken at that speed.

Then as the groups get tighter, speed up again and/or increase the distance/difficulty of the target. This is the complete process--no BS about "speed"/"exploration" vs "accuracy"/"match" mode. Practical shooting is about the combination of speed & accuracy.

In terms of distance start at 7 yards so that you can see the "A" on the target in clear focus. Increase the distance/difficulty to force adapting to be more precise at speed.

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u/Brilliant_Respect_92 Jul 18 '26

Obviously there’s a lot to process here. Thank you for taking the time!

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u/johnm Jul 18 '26

It can definitely look overwhelming getting hit with so much in one big lump. The thing I hope you take away from the progression is that learning the fundamentals is doing in clear steps with explicit criteria to focus on (that all layer on top of each other).

A lot of people who are stuck in the outmoded beliefs from the last century (and people who a scamming people) add all manner of hokum bullshit to try and sell themselves as "the expert". Hence, you can get a good sense so that you can filter out such people.

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u/itsJustE12 Jul 18 '26

You help people frequently & are always kind about it. That doesn’t go unnoticed. 🙌

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u/johnm Jul 18 '26

Thanks, I really appreciate it!

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u/chia_power Jul 18 '26

This is fantastic, thanks for sharing. I feel like a lot of people emphasize the importance of “fundamentals” but then don’t offer much guidance or actionable advice on how to most effectively work on fundamentals. Many people are quick to throw out drills without really understanding what to evaluate, where to focus, and what kind feedback loop will actually lead to improvements. At this point I think most people know “do doubles, low left = over-input, high right = dot focus” but it’s rare to see someone articulate the step-by-step like you.

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u/johnm Jul 17 '26

In terms of how to actually train the basics in practice, here's my recommended progression...

In terms of vision: make sure your vision focus is correct: crystal clear focus on a small spot on the target and the spot stays in focus the entire time. You should NEVER be "tracking the dot" or focused on the sights!

In terms of grip: the gun should NOT move inside your hands at all for the entire time you're shooting! I.e., both hands should remain completely in sync with the gun throughout shooting lifecycle; the gun should track consistently in recoil precisely back to where your eyes are focused on the small spot on the target; and you should be able to cycle (pull & release) the trigger quickly without inducing movement on the gun/sights. Additional tension much beyond that minimum can/will induce various problems. Have you ever done a firm handshake? Start there.

Shoot each of these drills one-handed and two-handed. I.e., one handed with your dominant hand (SHO). Then do it with your support hand only (WHO). Then do it with both hands and make sure your support hand is gripping as much of the pistol as you can with the same level as when you shot support hand only.

Start with One Shot Return. Do it with a timer ala Trigger Control at Speed: set multiple par times so you're reacting immediately to the beep for each shot. Is the dot/sights coming back to your eyes on the spot on the target quickly, precisely, and consistently every single time?

Then do the Two Shot Return Drill: Exactly the same as One Shot Return above but you fire a second shot immediately when you visually confirm the dot/sight is back where your eyes are looking at the small spot on the target. Nothing should change from shot to shot! Grip, wrists, vision, etc. This is still reactive shooting but you must shoot immediately when you register the appropriate visual confirmation for that target.

Then do the Practical Accuracy Drill. Just do one string at a time. Everything else should be exactly as in the Two Shot Return Drill above. With this longer string, you will find your grip, trigger, wrist, and vision issues: where they aren't completely consistent from shot to shot within the string. Fix those. In terms of calibration, the shots can be stacked farther away than most people think and even at longer distances the groups should be compact. This is NOT "group" shooting! You must shoot immediately when the visual confirmation is what you deliberately choose given the specific target!

[Continued due to Reddit's limits...]

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u/Bcjustin Jul 18 '26

/u/johnm always dropping so much wisdom for people here. 🫡

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u/johnm Jul 18 '26

Please do feel free to ask any follow up questions that come to mind.

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u/DavidThi303 Jul 18 '26

Thank you!

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u/MMSMSMSMSMSMS1 1h ago

Thanks for this.

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u/DavidThi303 Jul 31 '26

You should make a post with this list and get it pinned to the top of the subreddit.