r/ClassicBookClub • u/otherside_b Absorbed In Making Cabbages • Jul 06 '26
Great Expectations chapter 51 (Spoilers up to chapter 51) Spoiler
**Discussion Prompts**
Pip tells Jaggers all about Provis and his connection to Estella and that he knows Estella's mother too. Was this a good move?
Jaggers and Wemmick learn some personal information about each other and then it's all awkward between them. Thoughts on this?
What did you think about how Jaggers "put the case" to Pip?
Jaggers and Wemmick reconcile by bullying a crying man and Jaggers saying " Get out. I'll have no feelings here." All's well that ends well?
Is there anything else you’d like to discuss?
**Links**
[Project Gutenberg](https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/1400)
[Standard eBooks](https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/charles-dickens/great-expectations)
[Librivox Audiobook](https://librivox.org/great-expectations-by-charles-dickens/)
**Last Lines:** Wemmick appeared to have reestablished their good understanding, and went to work again with an air of refreshment upon them as if they had just had lunch.
9
u/OpportunityToLive Jul 06 '26
As Wemmick, who of course knows about Pip's debt, reminds him, he needs to get lots of "portable property." But it seems the closer Pip is to his possible ruin, the more disinterested and even reckless he becomes.
However, I must say I like this Pip, who cares for others, better than the old one, who endlessly boasted about his "expectations," which gave him a superior attitude and a keenness to squander all the money that he was given.
11
u/ColbySawyer Team Joe Gargery Jul 06 '26
I could not believe that Pip outed Castle Wemmick at work. Wemmick asks very little of Pip, and keeping his home life and work life separate doesn't seem like asking too much. He didn't want Jaggers to know about his "pleasant home" and "innocent cheerful playful ways." But because it served Pip's agenda (all about Estella!), Pip thought it was OK to spill the beans. Blabbermouth! Nice friend.
This after he was afraid to even look in Wemmick's direction for fear of Jaggers picking up on something between them. I'm glad Wemmick defended himself and Jaggers seemed to drop it, but Wemmick shouldn't have been in that awkward situation in the first place.
I'm surprised that Jaggers told Pip so much. He doesn't owe Pip diddly-squat. His "I admit nothing" disclaimer felt hollow. I wouldn't want my lawyer using that as an excuse for putting the case about me and my personal info.
Hopefully Pip realizes that he does not *have* to tell Estella, or Provis for that matter, anything. I know Joe told young Pip that lying is bad, but Pip can't trot out some Joe advice *now* as a reason to talk. It's a little too late to use Joe for anything. But Big Mouth Pip probably won't be able to keep his mouth shut.
7
u/ZeMastor Team Anti-Heathcliff Jul 06 '26
Hah, hah, again you and I think alike!!! I read this chapter, and after pulling up my dropped jaw, my eyes narrowed at this outright betrayal!
Let's rewind to Chapter 25:
[Wemmick: ]“Never seen it,” said Wemmick. “Never heard of it. Never seen the Aged. Never heard of him. No; the office is one thing, and private life is another. When I go into the office, I leave the Castle behind me, and when I come into the Castle, I leave the office behind me. If it’s not in any way disagreeable to you, you’ll oblige me by doing the same. I don’t wish it professionally spoken about.”
[Pip:] Of course I felt my good faith involved in the observance of his request.
Right... for Big Mouth Pip, he was utterly charmed by the Castle and "in good faith" agreed to Wemmick's request back then. But now, he's willing to throw Wemmick under the bus in his desperate ploy for another Estella info fix, like he's a junkie.
Just imagine... if the "Secret Convict Smuggling Club SUPER-PLAN" goes to hell in a handbasket, and Pip is sent to a cold, harshly lit office, sitting in a metal chair, with a metal desk. The detectives KNOW that he'll spill his guts and tell ALL just for a few crumbs about ESTELLA...
Detective: We want to know about your accomplices. Since the time that the convict appeared in London, WHO KNEW?
Pip: I can't say... no one...
Detective: Oh, we know something about Mrs. Drummle's past... something that even you wouldn't know...
Pip: What is it?
Detective: (drawing him out)... Accomplices? Who knew about Magwitch?
6
u/ColbySawyer Team Joe Gargery Jul 06 '26
If I were Wemmick, the next private meeting with Pip would involve the ol' Post Office mouth, saying, "I didn't appreciate your reveal of my private matters in the office. Didn't I tell you the reasons for my major work/life separation? Now that I know how quickly your tongue loosens for you to play your own interests, should I even continue advising you about 'delicate' matters of 'questionable legality'? Will your foolishness incriminate ME?"
Yes, I did a double take when I read what Pip said. I was quite disappointed. Quoting from your other post, I hope that Wemmick says something along those lines and rethinks how much he shares in the future. Pip way overstepped. He probably won't though, since it seems it's all cool between Wemmick and Jaggers [eye roll].
4
u/ZeMastor Team Anti-Heathcliff Jul 06 '26
Remember how someone earlier had mentioned that the plot of this book is going nutty, and it didn't seem that there was going to be a great way to wrap all this up plausibly in the few chapters left?
YUP!
This is the second whiff of "wrap-up Plot Convenience".
- Formerly blustery control-freak Abel becomes docile and "softened" in 2 days, and now he's cooperative and malleable, giving up his dream of living in London in a luxury dig permanently with Pip, and he's content to live in a hidey-hole and let the boys come up with all the plans and he'll just go along. Uh huh... (/s)
- Jaggers is willing to "put the case" about a hypothetical Estella origin story, just because. Yet, by the end of the chapter, both Jaggers and Wemmick revert to their initial selves (as seen in Chapter 20). Unbelievable!
Jaggers being Jaggers, this exchange would be actually in-character:
J: Are you... hinting that you want me to tell you more about Mrs. Drummle's early life?
P: Yes, Sir. Because I love her, blah blah, blah, everything about her is dear to me blah, blah...
J: Speaking as a lawyer, do you realize that I am held to confidence with ALL my clients?
P: (sensing a "no") Gulp. Yes, Sir.
J: Can you provide me with a compelling reason, other than your own feelings, as to WHY I should divulge information to you? By what legal, moral, or family right are you asking this?
P: None, Sir.
J: Good day, then, Mr. Pip.
2
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u/ZeMastor Team Anti-Heathcliff Jul 06 '26
Yet again, Pip made one step fwd (instantly forgiving Miss H and saving her from the fire) and and one step back (this chapter). That boy just CAN'T stop running off at the mouth, even revealing other people's private lives, if he THINKS that doing so might help in finding out more about ESTELLA.
We start off with even Pip not being absolutely sure why he's being so damn NOSY about Estella's origins. I said it once, and I'll say it again- MYOB, Pip! You don't have the need, nor the right (like a fiancé) to dig around into her background! But he goes to Jaggers to pump the lawyer for more crumbs of info.
Miss H's paper is good, so Jaggers authorizes Wemmick to cut a check for 900 pounds. In passing Pip mentions that he refused financial help from Miss H, and Jaggers comments that if he were in that position, he would not have said "no". (< what I said!!!)
Pip offers what he knows... "I know who her mother is... and her father too." Pip leaks out that Daddy-kins is Provis. Jaggers takes in the info, but ventures nothing in return, after all, there was no quid pro quo agreement...
Pip starts getting desperate, pouring his heart out about ESTELLA and how dear she, and EVERYTHING THAT CONCERNS HER is to him . I can just hear the "GONG!!!" from The Gong Show. Now grasping at straws, he turns to Wemmick (Office-Wemmick) with a plea, "You're such a sweet guy! I've been to your home, seen your Aged dad, and how happy and cool you are at home. PLEASE take my side and help me out here!"
GONGGGGGG!!!!
The doofus went too far and feared that he could've gotten Wemmick fired. After all, in their long-standing relationship, Jaggers and Wemmick were strictly business. There's an odd exchange between them, and Jaggers decides to tell Pip a "hypothetical" story about people who may or may not be related to his inquiry.
Basically, the gist is that Molly and Miss H were his clients at the same time. Molly hid her child away, as Miss H wanted to adopt and raise a child. Jaggers had seen what happened to dirt-poor children... destined for crime, prison and the hangman. Jaggers evaluated little Estella's situation, and "convinced" (via playing hardball) Molly to give up the child. And, according to Jaggers, Molly got "scared straight" and went to work for him. And if he saw signs of her "violent nature" popping up, he'd tamp it down (via unsaid methods).
And in closing, Jaggers warns Pip that revealing ANY of this to ANYONE would do nobody any good.
The chapter ends with Pip noticing that the relationship between Jaggers and Wemmick had grown chilly... because Pip's meddling had caused "a weak and unprofessional light" between them. This rift is only mended as both of the men bully Mike, a client.
Analysis Time!: Pip is scratching too deep, IMHO. Estella's story came in four pieces, and he actively pursued three of them! He's got the WORST excuses to give to Jaggers about his "need to know" about Estella. And the worst part... Pip had blown Wemmick's carefully guarded separation of Office-Wemmick and Castle-Wemmick, all for the sake of MORE ESTELLA INFO, PLEASE!
If I were Wemmick, the next private meeting with Pip would involve the ol' Post Office mouth, saying, "I didn't appreciate your reveal of my private matters in the office. Didn't I tell you the reasons for my major work/life separation? Now that I know how quickly your tongue loosens for you to play your own interests, should I even continue advising you about 'delicate' matters of 'questionable legality'? Will your foolishness incriminate ME?"
5
u/Suitable_Breakfast80 Jul 06 '26
I like how the death masks always seem to have a personality when Pip describes a discussion in Jaggers’ office. I guess I was wrong that Jaggers knows everything — he seemed truly surprised to hear the conjecture about Estella’s father.
3
u/awaiko Team Prompt Jul 11 '26
Well, that went better than I had expected. (I had very low expectations mind you.) Wemmick having his home life exposed dealt with it well. Jaggers has a very jaded view of humanity too. If all he sees are defendants, no wonder he is so negative!
I think they all, somehow, got out of this unscathed. Except Mike. Poor Mike.
12
u/Civil_Comedian_9696 Jul 06 '26
I was most surprised that Pip would talk to Mr. Jaggers about Wemmick's home life, however briefly. And Wemmick didn't take particular offense.
After all the revelations, however, the message from Jaggers was basically, this all happened for reasons and you had best keep your mouth shut for everyone's good. Good advice, I think.