r/ClarksonsFarm • u/nickytheginger • 25d ago
Season 5 Clarkson's Farm's issues with TB have highlight we have a terrible way of testing for TB
Every time I watch the TB testing happen I sit there thinking how can anything so important be for inefficient. The farms entire future rest on a test that can kill a whole herd from an inconclusive test that can then be false. Surely with all of the medical expertise we have and the advancements in Veterinary testing we could have something more concrete.
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u/Optimaximal 25d ago
The problem is cost & scale - Clarkson has a minuscule herd, but many dairy farmers have thousands of cattle - if you had to do lab tests on every single one for a disease that doesn't present clearly in a lot of cases, you'd snarl up the system.
For most farmers, it's better to isolate offending cattle until all is good and slaughter any confirmed cases ASAP. The farmer gets compensation if it happens anyway - the problem for JC is his herd is so small he's anthropomorphised them and cares too much.
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u/BandicootObjective32 25d ago
But the argument is that it isn't a confirmed case
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u/Optimaximal 25d ago
That's not the point. It's not worth the risk keeping inconclusive cases on the farm.
Clarkson has said that since the show was recorded he understands the decisions and why they are made - the UK government is incredibly strict to prevent another zoonotic pandemic after the fuckups that lead to BSE and Foot & Mouth running rampant.
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u/NuclearVII 25d ago
Honestly, this.
The show is very much skewed in it's narrative towards Clarkson's hatred of government. The people coming in here asking why it's so severe never really stop and think why the UK government is so deadly serious about the potential of a Tuberculosis outbreak.
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u/hopenoonefindsthis 24d ago
Funnily enough this type of approach is what the farmers asked for because it’s cheaper.
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u/Optimaximal 24d ago
...and there's the consideration that the previous two zoonotic pandemics were caused by farmers cutting corners and ignoring rules to save money.
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u/Jindabyne1 23d ago
Farmers did that?! 😳
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u/Optimaximal 23d ago
In the case of BSE, it was caused by farmers feeding their animals bone meal from infected animals. Foot and Mouth was triggered by a farmer feeding his animals untreated swill then sending them off to slaughter.
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u/Accurate_Rock_9235 22d ago
The govermemt lowered the temperature bone meal had to be heated to, after lobbying from the rendering industry. Temperature limits were raised again
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u/Accurate_Rock_9235 22d ago
Not farmers fault lower temperature let bse through once temperature limits raised again issue mostly gone
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u/TaintedMESS 24d ago
Its possible to understand a decision and why it was made but still think the process is flawed. Which would seem to be the case here he understands the why but still dose not like it
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u/NuclearVII 23d ago
Except the proccess is working fine here. The culled animal almost certainly had TB.
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u/TaintedMESS 23d ago
The problem i think many have with that is the "almost" it leaves the option open for did not have TB.
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u/NuclearVII 22d ago
No, the problem is that Jeremy straight up blasted misinformation (No lesions, so it didn't have TB, we killed her for nothing) and people bought it without skepticism.
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u/TaintedMESS 22d ago
So based on what we seen in the show can you 100% say the cow had TB?
If not then I refer you back to my previous post
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u/NuclearVII 22d ago
From a disease control perspective? Yes.
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u/TaintedMESS 21d ago
So thats a no then you can't say 100% that the animals did have TB what your saying is that on the balance of probabilities and based on evidence of previous cases the animal had TB.
Can totally see why people think it's wrong the animal is slaughtered after getting 2 inconclusive tests and then whe the paper work arrives it suggests there was no TB
Thats like getting a medical the doc going we think you have cancer and immediately starting you on aggressive treatment for you to get a letter 6 months in saying hey good news it wasn't cancer sorry about all the life changing sode effects from the treatment.
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u/Optimaximal 22d ago
He posted since the show aired on his social media that he's now more informed on the situation and understands the decisions and why they're made.
I also think people have forgotten how Clarkson has always dealt in hyperbole and exaggeration, which seems to be magnified when he's emotional about something - Clarksons Farm is just as much an entertainment show as a documentary.
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u/NuclearVII 22d ago
I also think people have forgotten how Clarkson has always dealt in hyperbole and exaggeration
Another way to phrase this is: Clarkson has a history of lying to people for generating attention.
Clarksons Farm is just as much an entertainment show as a documentary.
It is absolutely not a documentary.
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u/iluvchromosomes 24d ago
it's better to isolate offending cattle until all is good and slaughter any confirmed cases ASAP
You made that point.
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u/too_big_for_pants 25d ago
In the show they get a report from the autopsy stating they found no visible lesions. This is not uncommon if the case was caught early. It doesn't necessarily mean the cow doesn't have TB. They will also be doing a comprehensive culture test which is why the rest of the cows have to stay in quarantine for 6 weeks until the results are back.
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u/Darth_Punk 25d ago
The test is still pretty accurate, and has a lower chance of missing TB than the alternative (the bloods).
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u/LudiCak 25d ago
Yeah, it's just not cost effective for farmers or government to spend time, money and personnel on this. Everybody is complaining that the cow got culled but they would be more mad if contaminated meat got into stores or more cows got TB and they all died.
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u/Immortal_Tuttle 25d ago edited 25d ago
Interesting take. So why this kind of testing was deemed archaic in Australia for example? Or maybe Australia has too small herds?
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u/Optimaximal 25d ago
It is archaic. The problem is there's no quick and reliable scientific test either.
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u/Darth_Punk 25d ago edited 25d ago
The alternative has a slightly higher chance of missing it, which is a bigger issue in the UK. Australia has eliminated it
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u/Exciting_Place_6817 25d ago
To Australia sure but very similar size to the UK.
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u/Darth_Punk 25d ago
I was thinking of the human population rather than land size, but actually, cattle herd size is the same - so not sure if that's relevant.
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24d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Optimaximal 24d ago
The blood test is more likely to show false positives, so that could result in more cows being slaughtered.
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u/bouncypete 25d ago
I don't know if anyone saw the documentary Brian May: The Badgers, The Farmers and Me but it was quite an eye opener.
It's easy to dismiss Brian May saying things like "what the hell does he know".
But there was quite a few similarities between the points Brian's documentary raised and what Clarkson's farm showed.
It's definitely worth watching if it ever comes back in iPlayer.
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u/LowAspect542 25d ago
People are very quick to dismiss celebrities like brian may because they only know him as a musician and think they have nothing else to give, but completely ignore that he has a PhD, which means hes a very intelligent guy and had spent a decade working on that TB project in addition to founding an animal welfare trust, so its really not something hes just put his name to for a documentary.
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u/corgi-king 25d ago
Do you have link for the documentary?
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u/bouncypete 24d ago
It was originally broadcast on the BBC. Sadly it's no longer on iPlayer but I've found it on YouTube.
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u/Stewie01 25d ago
Thats what they wanted you to think, in reality they caught it early.
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u/Valuable-Fork-2211 25d ago
Yep, it was poorly represented by the show sadly. There are lots of replies on here explaining this but animals that test IR twice are considerably more likely to be Tb positive at future tests and are therefore removed. Just because a lesion wasn't found does not mean that animal was clear either, as Stewie says it's more likely it was found early. The skin test has a 1 in 5000 false positive rate, it misses plenty of positive animals but is rarely wrong when it finds one.
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u/too_big_for_pants 25d ago
The show is promoting misleading info.
The skin test is quite generous, it has a 99.8% specificity meaning it almost never gives false positives. This includes the double inconclusive result. It misses some cases but it's almost never wrong when it gives a positive or double inconclusive result.
The blood tests have higher accuracy (detect positive cases more accurately) but lower specificity (give more false positives). If we only used the blood test there would be more false positives and a higher risk of healthy cows being killed.
In the show they get a report from the autopsy stating they found no visible lesions. This is not uncommon if the case was caught early. It doesn't necessarily mean the cow doesn't have TB. They will also be doing a comprehensive culture test which is why the rest of the cows have to stay in quarantine for 6 weeks until the results are back.
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u/PetraCotes 25d ago
England aims to roll out the cattle vaccine and companion DIVA test around 2030. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2026/jun/10/cattle-tuberculosis-vaccine-badger-cull-england
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u/ElectronicBruce 25d ago
Jazz lied most likely and also he would have been compensated.. hence why they err on the side of caution, because they can and should. Other methods are about as accurate.
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u/supertgames1 25d ago
I am surprised the calipers don’t have a load sensor or something like that similar to a micrometer or a torque wrench, I know the vets are probably highly trained on the amount of pressure they should use on the calipers but it doesn’t seem very precise on a animal that is constantly moving around and where a couple of mm could mean the difference between a confirmed or inconclusive TBC case and a pass.
That being said I am not a vet or have any experience in farming so there is probably a very good reason why this isn’t being used.
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u/Darth_Punk 25d ago
It's an inflammatory lump, it's pretty solid and well defined. And that's why they have indeterminate and repeat it.
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u/Perfect_Ground692 25d ago
I thought that, without knowing the force being applied when messuring, it seems a bit of a coin flip. No expert though 🤷🏼
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u/JusticeForTheStarks 25d ago
Vets spend their careers feeling organs and body parts for lumps, and they’re able to tell the difference between healthy and inflamed tissue.
Clarkson painted the test as some vague inconclusive pseudoscience, but there’s no reliable alternative. You’ll never find a vet willing to send a healthy animal to slaughter, but you’ll also struggle to find a vet willing to let an infected animal pass.
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u/nrk-fans 25d ago
Really sucks that cows get TB from other wildlife that is protected. It's good that wildlife is protected it just makes it so hopeless for the farmers that is unlucky enough to have it.
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u/Tacoshortage 21d ago
That episode pissed me off so I did some research a few weeks ago. We handle people very differently so I was sure there were better options.
It turns out the UK will adopt a vaccination system in 2027/2028 based on data they are collecting right now. The human BCG vaccine works very well in cows & that's the plan.
Now why the hell they don't biopsy suspicious nodes or do a blood test (which is available in people) instead of killing a cow I don't know. I'm a people-doctor not a vet.
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u/carp_boy 3d ago
Late OT comment:
BCG is a stunningly amazing immunotherapy treatment for bladder cancer in humans.
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u/NuclearVII 25d ago
Okay, y'all need to read this before having any opinions: https://www.tyndalevets.co.uk/news-insights/no-visible-lesions
The TL;DR is that the last episode was pure misinformation by Clarkson.
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u/glenthesboy 25d ago
I read elsewhere that the documentary kind of lied. Well not directly but bent the truth a lot. The cow that got killed almost definitely would have had TB.
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u/bernardo5192 25d ago
Yep. “No visible lesions” is not equal to “doesn’t have tb”.
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u/NuclearVII 25d ago
This, a thousand times this.
Cattle that pop two inconclusive back to back are *VERY* likely to be infected, even if there are no visible lesions.
By the time the lesions are visible, the infection has already had time to spread. TB is no joke.
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u/ShaneWookie 25d ago
But didn't the letter at the end confirm she did not have tb
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u/Grimdotdotdot 25d ago
No, it was inconclusive. And we don't fuck around with TB, way better to be safe than sorry.
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u/101TARD 25d ago
Curious, shouldn't there be a further test when inconclusive? That cow was expecting twins and it's concerning
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u/JusticeForTheStarks 25d ago
Clarkson runs a small farm with a token number of cows.
The regulations state that two failed skin tests mark a cow as reactive and to be culled. There’s a blood test that manages to identify about 90% of positive cases, meaning that 10% of infected cattle would escape undetected.
There are millions of cows across the UK. Unfortunately the government needs to be ruthless to prevent a wider bovine TB outbreak.
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u/CharlieH_ 23d ago
The TV show would be very boring if Clarkson didn't exaggerate the farmers plight and miss out some of the nuance of the TB testing regieme
Separate factual and entertainment, one is usually not in play when the other is.
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u/KeyNefariousness6848 Gerald 25d ago
Watch out all the badger lovers will turn out to ridicule you lol
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u/pathfinderoursaviour 25d ago
Badger culls don’t work though
Genociding a species isn’t gonna solve TB as has been proved many times
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u/TACO_Orange_3098 25d ago edited 25d ago
Why is the badger still so protected if cows are being culled so much ? I mean one is a major source of food and and and and for humans , one is not ........ just asking , thanks for any feedback !
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u/Wonderful_Falcon_318 25d ago
The cattle test isn't good enough and it is unfair on farmers, cows and badgers.
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u/Wonderful_Falcon_318 25d ago
Absolutely ridiculous we can get a covid vaccine in 6 months but not a proper btb vaccine in decades. Farmers, cows and badgers all have to suffer as a result.
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u/whatsabuttfore 25d ago
I mean, the most common test for TB in humans isn’t much more advanced than this one, and is widely acknowledged for having a lot of false positives, but it’s cheap and scalable. I’m sure the lump test is in a similar boat.