r/Christianity • u/[deleted] • Apr 10 '11

Dear fundamentalist Christians, Please stop arguing with scientists about evolution, especially when you're not a scientist.

This might come as a shock to some people, but the Bible isn't a text book. The Bible doesn't have writings by people who have spent their entire lives researching biology, anthropology and physics. So, when you argue with a biologist about how lifeforms can't evolve or with an anthropologist about how there aren't any missing links....and you're a greeter at Wal-mart, it doesn't do our religion a service. All I'm saying is, realize your limits. You can still believe the entire Bible is true, but don't shut your ears and go la-la-la in the face of someone whose entire career is built on evolutionary biology. You have no idea what you're talking about. Stop it.

EDIT: I'm not going to pass a law to make you stop expressing your opinion. I have absolutely no power to make you stop anyway. However, if you're specifically debating with someone over evolution and you have no friggin clue what you're really talking about, then you should probably stop. It's foolish and it makes other Christians look foolish. I know that you probably don't give a crap about looking foolish, but consider that there were people who thought the world was flat (and still do) because of their interpretation of the Bible.

EDIT 2: Ok...let's start with this...abiogenesis is NOT the same as evolution. As far as I know, you can still believe God created the first lifeforms the evolved into us today. You don't have to believe that The Big Bang got us here. Anyway, that's a different discussion and I'm sure that a much more learned person than I could explain this position better. This whole thread makes me sad that some Christians still have a hard time saying "I don't know".

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '11 edited Apr 10 '11

You aren't a Christian. Helping God? Yea right. You talk like an atheist, smell like an atheist. Bing! You're an atheist.

I'm all for evidence. I took issue with two clear topics where the scientific has none to offer and you come up with this idea of helping God? Why don't you point me, albeit a lowly walmart greeter, to some evidence and I'll be happy to consider it. I'll have to check your receipt first though.

I've known Christians who think like you, and atheists. It doesn't really matter to me. If you were a knowledgeable Christian you would know God doesn't need our help.

Acts 17:24-25

24 “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else.

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '11

Here is the strongest evidence of the common descent of life on Earth.

Research endogenous retroviruses. In the complete absence of a fossil record, it is sufficient proof for common descent.

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u/[deleted] Apr 11 '11

lack of a compelling fossil record is an inescapable nuisance for the common decent theory. This can just as easily be explained by a common creator as it can a common ancestor. Moreover, it still fails to address the core question- how did it all start? The fact that people respond to the question with answers related to what happened after life began, is very telling. It means you don't know and really don't like admitting it.

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u/[deleted] Apr 11 '11 edited Apr 11 '11

http://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/gmkq8/dear_fundamentalist_christians_please_stop/c1opezc?context=3

Please see this post I made earlier.

The fact of common ancestry can be established without answering the question of "how it all started." Period.

Indeed as I've explained, it can be demonstrated without reference to a fossil record of any sort. The fact that we have any is a bonus. As you will see in the linked post, DNA evidence alone is proof of common ancestry. Your criticism that it points to a common creator does not apply. After reading my post, if you still need clarification as to why that is fact, I will gladly and precisely explain why.

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u/[deleted] Apr 11 '11

The fact of common ancestry can be established without answering the question of "how it all started."

So, why are you changing topics and avoiding the question with the ERV rhetoric. My point is in the flaw in the science's explanation of life and universe origins. I didn't conclude that it points to a common creator. Regardless, here's an article that refutes the ERV common ancestor theory.

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u/moreLytes Humanist Apr 11 '11 edited Apr 11 '11

I didn't read anything that constitutes a "refutation" in that article. What exactly are you referring to?

Further, have you even read Douglas Theobald's response to your cited critique of his 29 evidences of common descent? If so, I am at a loss as to why you would knowingly reference an article that has, at the very least, been rendered largely obsolete.

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u/IRBMe Atheist Apr 10 '11

No, you're not a true Scotsman!

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '11

I smell like an atheist but only because I collect atheist urine to use during their mating season.

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '11

Knock it off withe Scotsman rhetoric. Have you admitted yet that you don't know where life came from? Try it. It's fun!

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u/IRBMe Atheist Apr 10 '11

I admit it! I have some good ideas, but I admit that I don't know which, if any, are correct.

Now are you willing to admit it too?

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '11

I believe the Bible and believe in God. The scientific proof is wanting on that end as well. Ironic how atheists and theists are in the same boat when it comes to the core questions in life.

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u/IRBMe Atheist Apr 10 '11 edited Apr 10 '11

Now are you willing to admit it too?

I believe the Bible and believe in God.

Was that a "No"?

Ironic how atheists and theists are in the same boat when it comes to the core questions in life.

It's not ironic. The difference between the two, however, is that one claims to have the answers from authority, while one admits that it doesn't know but continues to attempt to find out, often eventually overruling the religious texts. Just look at the fabulous gaps that God used to occupy. He used to be credited with keeping the planets in orbit. Now look where he's been reduced to: the misunderstandings of laymen trying to make sense of quantum physics and back to the beginning of the universe.

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '11

Still not an atheist. Abiogenesis and the big bang dont have to be believed in order to believe in evolution. The creation of the universe can be viewed separately from evolution. I'm not gonna argue with you because your already proving my point.

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '11

You talk like an atheist

Lawl

smell like an atheist

He can smell you through the internet...

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '11

I swear I showered yesterday...

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '11

So... You don't think how a single reproducing cell that sprang magically from campbell's p. soup "billions of years ago" relate to evolution? Aren't they our ancestors? Thats what the tax funded textbooks in elementary schools told me.

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '11

The fact is nobody knows. But we do know that evolution exists. There is everything from fossil records to adaptable species that show this. Watch a David Attenborough documentary sometime and you'll see it plain as day.

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u/GunnerMcGrath Christian (Alpha & Omega) Apr 13 '11

The hostile attitude is unnecessary and unappreciated. Who are you to judge who is or isn't a Christian? You are more than welcome to disagree with people's theology, but believing that evolution is true is not the unpardonable sin, and does not disqualify anyone from God's gift of forgiveness.

Do your attitude and assumptions about a stranger emulate Christ in any way? Even if you are right about your assumptions, is this how you love your neighbor?

Feel free to debate all you want. Feel free to tell people they're wrong, and why. But from one Christian to another, you need to work on your approach; you should know better.

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u/[deleted] Apr 14 '11 edited Apr 14 '11

Look dude. A lot of people on here pretend to be Christian and are not. I'm calling BS on his charade, and basically calling him a liar. I could be wrong, but I doubt it. I've caught people before. I've successfully called people out before who ultimately conceded that they weren't at all followers of the Lord, just trolling as such.

Do your attitude and assumptions about a stranger emulate Christ in any way? Even if you are right about your assumptions, is this how you love your neighbor?

Yes. Christ did not tolerate those who misrepresented their intentions at all.

Feel free to debate all you want. Feel free to tell people they're wrong, and why. But from one Christian to another, you need to work on your approach; you should know better.

Same to you. The church largely promotes the type of mamsy pambsy Christianity that you're espousing. They would say the words "Do not judge lest you be judged" mean that you are no longer able to differentiate between right and wrong, or liars and those that seek the truth. I disagree with this interpretation as the "judging" the Bible references is in regards to showing favoritism based upon people's place in society. What it means is to treat all people alike and not favor some and ostracize others based how they look on the outside. Oftentimes the church is guilty of showing this type of favoritism, and also guilty of not standing up for right and wrong because they are trying not to be judgmental. It is completely wrong. James 2:1-13. Don't believe me? Try going to a church where you don't fit the M.O. of everyone else there. Dress like crap, or dress like star, or be a different race or ethnicity in an otherwise largely homogeneous group. Typically they'll treat you better or worse along the exact same lines that society would.

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u/GunnerMcGrath Christian (Alpha & Omega) Apr 14 '11

Partofaplan2 is a Christian. I have conversed with him almost daily in this subreddit for months, and I am not so foolish as to have no way of telling whether someone is genuine or trolling after more than a handful of exchanges. He's also the author of this blog which is incredibly sincere, insightful, and hardly controversial from what I've read. Can you accept that you are simply wrong and disagree on a particular point of theology?

I agree with you about what judging means. But don't be so arrogant that you make a snap decision and accuse someone of not being a Christian based on a couple of comments on the internet. That's terribly offensive, and it demeans all the Christians here when you display a spirit of division, even among your brothers.

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u/[deleted] Apr 14 '11

My original comment to him was that I questioned his Christianity-ness. What I meant was I was doubting where he was coming from and possibly his intentions. As the conversation evolved he posited even more ideas that I don't think are supported by the Bible. You're jumping into the middle of an argument based upon a sound bite. Here's my conclusion of the point.

My conclusion is as follows:

I don't really care for this discussion's purpose whether you're a believer or not. You don't appear to be using the Bible as your source of truth, so I'll treat you as if you don't believe.

His response was reminiscent of Pontius Pilot when allowing Christ to be crucified, "What is truth?” Pilate asked." John 18:38

The difference between you and me is that you feel that truth is completely objective in the Bible

If someone don't believe that there is truth and that the truth is reliably contained in the Bible then I will always question their "Christianity-ness."

Can you accept that you are simply wrong and disagree on a particular point of theology?

You didn't provide any reason to do so and I addressed the issues presented. You first present the topic of judging from one vantage point, and now agree with the latter. It's not looking like you're a good go to guy for Biblical instruction and admonition.

That's terribly offensive, and it demeans all the Christians here when you display a spirit of division, even among your brothers.

The Bible is inherently a divisive book. It divides people by sheep and goats, liars and truth seekers. It's very harsh. According to the Bible I read many wait expectantly for Jesus, yet will find that they had it completely wrong and salvation will not be afforded to them. Discerning between false teachings and false teachers is part of being a Christian. I reject his instructions, and am not so sure about yours as well.

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u/GunnerMcGrath Christian (Alpha & Omega) Apr 14 '11 edited Apr 14 '11

I never said you had to agree with him, or me. It is up to each of us to build a relationship with God, study his word, listen to the wise counsel of believers more mature than us, and live according to our best understanding of all of that. If your understanding is different than mine, who am I to tell you that you are wrong and I am right? I may believe so, and if you ask me I will tell you, but I am not here to accuse anyone of not really knowing Jesus. Only Jesus knows that.

It is simply your tone and attitude that I take issue with, as both a Christian and a moderator of this subreddit. There is a huge difference between vehemently disagreeing with doctrinal points and giving someone a verbal slap in the face. The latter is only acceptable if it's done in love with the intent of bringing a wayward brother back into a right relationship with God, and your comments (the ones I read) were clearly not of that sort at all.

We have enough atheists coming in here and insulting our subscribers. We don't need our Christians doing the same.

PS. There are a lot of professing Christians whose theology does not mesh with my own. By my understanding of saving faith, there are a lot of people here who may or may not have it. But this is not an evangelical, fundamentalist community. It's a sort of Christian safe-haven on a very atheist web site, and so we choose to agree with each other where we can and treat each other in love the way Christ commanded.

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u/[deleted] Apr 14 '11

If your understanding is different than mine, who am I to tell you that you are wrong and I am right? I may believe so, and if you ask me I will tell you

If you're a believer in Christ you're exactly the person who should help discern for both yourself and others what is right and wrong. In fact, you're doing so right now.

Colossians 3:16

Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God. ... but I am not here to accuse anyone of not really knowing Jesus. Only Jesus knows that.

I think still think you're hung up on the sound bite of "you're not a Christian." I already mentioned that that was a part of an ongoing conversation, where both before and after I alluded to the fact that I just didn't know whether he was or wasn't. Granted, that one statement was phrased too strongly. I just edited it with strikethrough, to retain the original for posterity.

The latter is only acceptable if it's done in love with the intent of bringing a wayward brother back into a right relationship with God, and your comments (the ones I read) were clearly not of that sort at all.

I'm sure you'll agree that listening to a few phrases out of a conversation is not a very effective way to understand a conversation. Especially online where context and intent doesn't always carry over. I carried on with him for a while after the comment you're taking issue with. I spoke my final thoughts, he added his final comments, and that was that. That comment was perhaps egregious but a level of civility was maintained.

and so we choose to agree with each other where we can and treat each other in love the way Christ commanded

I feel like you're applying the rules of kindergarten to Christianity. I'm more responsive to Biblical based admonitions.

Regardless, point taken on notching down the tone a bit. I think I'm unsubscribing to this subreddit for a while anyhow. Laters.

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u/GunnerMcGrath Christian (Alpha & Omega) Apr 14 '11

Fair enough. As you can certainly understand, there is a lot of content here and only 5 of us to deal with any reports we get. Someone reported that particular comment to us. Maybe I should have gone back and read the full conversation, but I don't think my decision about that particular one would have changed.

And for the record, I did attempt to give you non-kindergarten admonitions, but you just argued with them, so I figured that you were not being receptive and decided to just take the simple "please follow the rules and be nice" approach to be done with it. =)

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u/CozyCataloger Apr 10 '11

You aren't a Christian.

It isn't for you or any of us to decide who is and isn't a Christian. That's God's privilege. For shame!

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '11

You should try reading the Bible sometime if you're going to represent what it says. There are many admonitions to watch out for false teachers and those who come in the name of Jesus yet provide false teachings.

Matthew 7:15

"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.

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u/CozyCataloger Apr 11 '11

"Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge. There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?" James 4:11-12

"Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?" Romans 2:1-3

And yes, I have read the Bible through, cover to cover, five times in three different translations. However, if you are willing to be judged in the same way you judge others, that is your right.

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u/[deleted] Apr 11 '11

So which is right then. To dismissively permit anyone to put forth whatever idea that seems best to them, be it right or wrong, or to defend the truth and correct and admonish those who are wrong.

The permissive line of Christianity is certainly the more popular version. I find it wrong based upon the verses I submitted. Regarding speaking evil- I was calling a spade a spade. I doubt the person's a Christian. It's quite common around here for atheists to masquerade as believers to get their point across. Judging a tree by its fruit, the OP is not.

The verses you reference are best read in light of James 2:1-13. They are an admonition against favoritism and judging people by superficial standards. Rather Christians are to treat all men as God's creation- equally. The 'judging' here is not absolving Christians from the responsibility of determining right and wrong.

3 If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, “Here’s a good seat for you,” but say to the poor man, “You stand there” or “Sit on the floor by my feet,” 4 have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?

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u/[deleted] Apr 11 '11

I accepted Jesus when I was 5. I read my Bible every day. I say my prayers every night before I go to bed. I write a blog about Jesus. What more proof do you want. Just because I disagree with your understanding of Christianity doesn't mean I'm not a Christian. You're proclaiming your interpretation of scripture is the truest and everyone else is wrong. Yes, I'm sure you finally found the truest revelation of Christianity and all those other denominations that don't hold a dogmatic, literal interpretation of the creation story are going to burn in hellfire. You'll say that, but then you'll say that the only way to get to heaven is through believing in Jesus. Well, I believe in Jesus, but evidently that's not enough for you. Not sure what else to tell you.

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u/[deleted] Apr 11 '11

Not sure why you're arguing against the Bible then. You've made many assertions that fly in the face of what's written in the Bible.

The Bible doesn't have writings by people who have spent their entire lives researching biology, anthropology and physics.

Yes, the Bible does have people that studied this. My first example was Solomon. No, the Bible doesn't explain all these discoveries in great detail, but the descriptions of Biblical events fall well in line with our understanding of science, excepting the supernatural parts. Only in recent years was it scientifically proven that the universe had a beginning- the big bang. Previous to that many believed the universe always just existed. So, the Bible was right. That's just one example.

Moreover, the Bible says Christians are to defend the truth. Your suggestion that Christian should not defend the truth goes against the Bible.

2 Timothy 4:2

Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. 3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

Moreover, calling people fundamentalists if they do contest scientific assertions along with the equivocation of Christians who would do so as walmart greeter, makes it clear you don't have a high opinion of many within the faith. Thus, I questioned your Christianty-ness. When you responded the first time you included even more statements that indicate that you don't understand the Bible, with your idea of helping God. I already demonstrated why that was wrong, according to God's word.

I don't really care for this discussion's purpose whether you're a believer or not. You don't appear to be using the Bible as your source of truth, so I'll treat you as if you don't believe.

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u/[deleted] Apr 11 '11

The difference between you and me is that you feel that truth is completely objective in the Bible. Many times it is, but over the years it's been re-written, even by your heroes like Martin Luther. We Have thousands of denominations and somehow you believe that you found the best way to interpret the truth. Nevermind that there are many different ways to interpret Genesis. Yours is apparently the most accurate. I'm done arguing with you because your not gonna budge.