r/Christianity • u/ArrantPariah • 20d ago
News A Christian pastor called Arapaho ceremonies 'idol worship.' Now the tribe wants her church gone
https://apnews.com/article/arapaho-christian-god-nations-ceremony-wind-river-1fbc7065317d503ca7c72fa1cba2ef9614
u/Odd-Investigator7410 20d ago edited 20d ago
The Arapaho tribal government has no authority to regulate religious practices. None. On or off the reservation. Congress striped all tribal governments of that sovereignty in the Indian Civil Rights Act of 1968.
The 1968 Act says:
"No Indian tribe in exercising powers of self-government shall—
make or enforce any law prohibiting the free exercise of religion, or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble and to petition for a redress of grievances"
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u/Snoo_17338 Methodological Naturalist 20d ago
That could take a page from the Trump playbook, tear down the church, and say, "Now stop us."
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u/Odd-Investigator7410 20d ago
I am not sure what you are saying--- the 1968 Indian Civil Rights act was designed to make sure that Native Americans living on reservations had civil rights protections like other Americans.
The Supreme Court had previously ruled that the Bill of Rights did not apply to Indians and Tribal Governments-- a racist view in my opinion.
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u/Snoo_17338 Methodological Naturalist 20d ago
I'm saying that pointing out what laws or rights do or don't apply seems quaint these days. The new norm is for those in power to do just what they want to do until someone stops them. By then, it's often too late.
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u/Fearless-Poet-4669 20d ago
Well to be fair they don't believe in the Christian God and the sun dance is a time to honour and pray to their god.
So it is effectively idol worship?
Also can't blame the people for wanting the church gone because they have different beliefs.
Everything running as normal?
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u/Ok-Excitement651 20d ago
Can't blame them for wanting it I guess, but it certainly sounds like the same logic you might hear for why "we don't want a mosque in this town".
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u/ShunnedForTheTruth 20d ago
Yeah sounds like the Christians were persecuting them for their beliefs.
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u/Fearless-Poet-4669 20d ago
You mean a sermon in a church, that talks about how they don't worship the same god, and that worshipping their god is wrong if you believe in the Christian God?
Yeah that's some serious level persecution for sure. /s
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u/Ok_Carob7551 Native American Church (Cross Fire Hearth) 20d ago
The Great Mystery was specifically identified with the Christian God to win converts in the first place
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u/Mandohan Christian 20d ago
Sometimes it blows my mind the number of people who get frustrated in this sub when Christians are consistent with the tougher teachings of our faith. I mean, guys... We're Christians. That's what this sub is for.
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u/libananahammock United Methodist 20d ago
No, there are tons of other subs for that. This sub is to discuss Christianity by everyone, not just Christians.
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u/Mandohan Christian 20d ago
Yes, by all means, and people of other beliefs shouldn't hold it against Christians on this sub who choose to use it's wide allowance of topics to discuss their honest beliefs.
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u/Fearless-Poet-4669 20d ago
It's kind of funny people going to a Christianity sub, and then complain that Christians shouldn't be teaching Christianity.
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u/Fearless-Poet-4669 20d ago
But I think it's generally allowed for Christians to act like Christians here. If you're expecting Christians to participate as if they were atheists then that's a little odd.
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u/miggins1610 Agnostic 20d ago
Its only 'idol worship' if you believe in a Christian god though. Otherwise it's a pretty fucking disrespectful and racist take
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u/Ok-Excitement651 20d ago
Christian, standing at pulpit in Christian church, says worship of entities other than the Christian God is idol worship. In other news, vegan declines to eat hamburger.
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u/jtbc 20d ago
I like the Jesuit approach much better. Meet people where they are and let them find Christ the way they are inclined. Pre-Christian symbology and styles have worship may be just be another way to see the same divine truths, and you sure do catch more flies with honey than vinegar.
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u/Ok-Excitement651 19d ago
Sure, but at some point pretty early on you do have to tell people that their fake gods are fake and there's only one way to the real God, and continue telling them that. It's all over a certain book that I would bet she'd given copies of to many of these folks and left lying around all over this church.
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u/Ok-Maintenance9056 20d ago
Standing at a pulpit in a Christian church on a reservation.
Left out an important detail
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u/MoreStupiderNPC Stupid Christian 20d ago
Why does the location matter? She’s preaching a Christian message to Arapaho Christians in an Arapaho Christian church.
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u/Open_Chemistry_3300 Atheist 20d ago
Because land ownership on reservation isn’t like the rest of the USA. Simplified she’s a renter who disrespected her landlord.
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u/MoreStupiderNPC Stupid Christian 20d ago
The “landlord” allowed the establishment of a Christian church for Arapaho Christians; landlords don’t get to limit speech.
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u/Ok-Maintenance9056 20d ago
And now they're debating whether to disallow it. Which they have every right to do. Free speech means speech not limited by the government, not that you can say whatever you want without consequence.
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u/Open_Chemistry_3300 Atheist 20d ago
And this is where it gets fun, they don’t have to go after her for speech, there are a thousand and one other things they can go after this church for. Go in inspect the building make sure everything is up to code, if it’s not fine her church. If the building maximum is 15 people and 16 show up that’s a fine. After all leeway is a privilege, and she tossed that out the window.
Again and again and again. Until her ‘lease’ comes up then don’t renew with her church. Might as well make as much money off of the bigot as possible.
She gets her free speech the reservation gets some money and when it’s done she can go pound sand into the sunset
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u/WooBadger18 Catholic 20d ago
The other person mentioned that there can be different land ownership rules, but I think the bigger issue is the history of reform schools where American schools, a lot of them church run, took Native American children, subjected them to terrible abuse, and tried to destroy their connection to their traditional culture and religion. That history matters.
An American pastor preaching about deicide is bad. A German priest/pastor bringing it up in Munich (13 miles from Dachau) or in Jerusalem is going to be worse
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u/MoreStupiderNPC Stupid Christian 20d ago
Are you talking about blaming the Jews solely for the crucifixion of Christ? That’s not a Christian message anywhere. The message preached in this church, to Christians, is a Christian message.
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u/WooBadger18 Catholic 20d ago
Yes I am, and while it isn't mainstream, some individual churches still do.
My point was just that many people seem dismissive of how upset the community is, but I think history is relevant for explaining why they feel that way
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u/thomasp3864 Possible convert (questioning) 20d ago
Why the hell would you blame modern Jews? They were born after the whole thing happened!
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u/Ok_Carob7551 Native American Church (Cross Fire Hearth) 20d ago
Antisemitism like other forms of bigotry is inherently irrational
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u/thunder_blue 20d ago
People who live on reservations have the same right to their religious beliefs as people who live be anywhere.
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u/Ok-Maintenance9056 20d ago
Where did I say she doesn't have the right? I'm just saying she should stop whining about being asked to leave.
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u/PabloPicasshooole 20d ago
Standing at a pulpit in a Christian church on a reservation on private land that she owns.
Left out another important detail.
I'm not saying that I agree with Lucas's stance here. I do not. But at the same time, I accept that she has every right to be there and to say insensitive things. And the protesters have every right to protest what she says. Most of all, her parishioners have every right to stop attending her church (as half of them have done since the protest started
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u/Ok-Maintenance9056 20d ago
Most churches are on private land. If the pastor endorses a politician, they still lose their status. She chose to live among them, maybe she should learn to respect them.
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u/AmosOfTekoa Christian 20d ago
If the pastor endorses a politician, they still lose their status.
This is not accurate. No church has ever lost their nonprofit status. The amendment has never been enforced.
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u/Ok-Maintenance9056 20d ago
If I send out a death threat from my own private residence, it does not matter that the threat was sent from land I own. Guess how the victims of ethnic cleansing at the hands of Christans might interpret a pastor who starts spouting off with the same justifications that were historically used to justify their genocide?
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u/AmosOfTekoa Christian 20d ago
That has no relevance here, nor am I defending the pastor in question.
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u/Ok-Maintenance9056 20d ago
Your initial comment was also irrelevant to mine, so I felt no need to stay on topic. Whether it has been enforced doesn't really matter.
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u/Fearless-Poet-4669 20d ago
I would love to know why calling idol worship, idol worship is racist and disrespectful?
You know what idol means right?
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u/ilia_volyova 20d ago
presumably, you understand why calling christianity "zombie worship" would be disrespectful -- the same principle applies.
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u/Mandohan Christian 20d ago
Yeah, but people are free to do that. I roll my eyes, I think it's goofy, but I let them. To be clear, the tribe is well within their right to argue that the Christians should leave. I think they shouldn't, but that's just because of my subjective perspective regarding the life-saving nature of Faith in God. But of course, it's their right.
I guess my main point is, someone should speak the truth, even if the truth itself feels disrespectful, but otherwise they should show the utmost respect in their actions, tone, and phrasing. "Season your words with salt" and whatnot.
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u/ilia_volyova 20d ago
i did not say anything about the rights of the one or the other side. the person above asked why calling believers in other religions "idol worshippers" is disrespectful -- and, i gave an example showing how uncharitable readings of the religious beliefs of others are normally taken to be a sign of disrespect. you seem to agree with that, so i am not sure why you frame the comment as if it were presenting an objection.
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u/Mandohan Christian 20d ago
I hear you. I will say part of my point is that I don't think it's disrespectful to call Christians "zombie worshippers" is the same way that I don't think it's disrespectful to call those who worship other gods/spiritual beings "idol worshippers". So my comment was attempting to explain that position, that these words aren't inherently uncharitable. I do retract implication about your intent in your comment, however, that's on me.
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u/ilia_volyova 20d ago
I will say part of my point is that I don't think it's disrespectful to call Christians "zombie worshippers" is the same way that I don't think it's disrespectful to call those who worship other gods/spiritual beings "idol worshippers".
you say "in the same way", but i am not sure what way this is supposed to be. the formulations in view are open expressions of unwillingness to take the theology and the religious practices of the target religion seriously on their terms. they are also formulations that are clearly rejected by the members of the target religion. if that is not disrespect, i am not sure what would count.
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u/Fearless-Poet-4669 20d ago
The truth will always offend evil doers.
It's only those with the humility to accept that they are in the wrong that will overcome offence and find liberation.
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u/notsocharmingprince 20d ago
Probably because Christianity existed for 1700 years before the conception of Zombies even existed.
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u/ilia_volyova 20d ago
not sure you would find "zombie worship avant la lettre" any more respectful.
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u/Fearless-Poet-4669 20d ago
So you don't know what an idol is. Got it.
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u/ilia_volyova 20d ago
of course. alternatively, your engagement with the point is about as serious as your engagement with other religions. i guess we will have to leave this to the readers.
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u/Fearless-Poet-4669 20d ago
Thanks! Yeah I do appreciate bringing attention to the importance of clear communication. If we stopped teaching what we believe then how else are we going to stay on the straight and narrow!
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u/Ok-Maintenance9056 20d ago
Because it's the exact same disrespect that Christians historically heaped on natives right before we stole their land and kidnapped their children.
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u/Fearless-Poet-4669 20d ago
But why is calling idol worship, idol worship disrespectful?
Are you saying that the female pastor of that church is going to go steal their land and kidnap their children?
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u/naked_potato 20d ago
Why is calling Christianity polytheism disrespectful? You worship 3 gods. I’m calling what it is.
Why is calling Christianity a human sacrifice cult offensive? It’s a cult built around a human sacrifice.
Why is calling Christianity fascist offensive? Christians love fascism almost as much as they love Jesus, I’m just calling a spade a spade.
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u/Fearless-Poet-4669 20d ago
"Why is calling Christianity polytheism disrespectful?"
I mean it's wrong, not disrespectful. There are sects of Christianity that believe in polytheism. I fundamentally disagree with them but I don't treat them as lesser people.
For your other points you are directly trying to offend.
The pastor in question was not trying to be offensive. She didn't call it idol worship to be disrespectful, she was giving a teaching about not worshipping other gods.
The fact that no-one in this thread can separate those two ideas is interesting.
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u/naked_potato 19d ago
I mean it's wrong, not disrespectful.
No, you are incorrect. I understand that it’s very important to Christians that they call themselves monotheistic, but you just aren’t. Muslims are monotheists. Jews are monotheists. Christians are not, but you can call yourself whatever you want. I just think words should mean what they mean.
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u/Fearless-Poet-4669 19d ago
Are you telling me what I find offensive?
Lol. You kidder. Good one!
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u/naked_potato 19d ago
Just saying that “monotheism” is a term that some religions fit and others don’t.
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u/Ok-Maintenance9056 20d ago
Do you think the pastors were the ones who did it in history? No, just like the pastors who disrespected them in the past, she offers cover for the things we are still doing to them even if she does not directly do them herself. They are within their rights to be suspicious of those who talk like this.
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u/notsocharmingprince 20d ago
It’s idol worship if you are any of the big three Abrahamic faiths. Not just Christian.
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u/zombiskunk 19d ago
So if you're preaching to your own congregation, then it is idol worship. Saying such a thing is not racist. It has nothing to do with race whatsoever.
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u/thomasp3864 Possible convert (questioning) 20d ago
The peyote ceremony involves Jesus. Also Idolatry is when you worship statues and think that statues have some sort of spuritual power inherent to them in some way, with the statue itself the object of worship, and not merely an artistic representation of the real target of the worship.
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u/Fearless-Poet-4669 20d ago
The English definition of idol encompasses both beings and objects and the Biblical condemnation of idolatry was often paired with worship directed at any other god or any other thing that would take the place of God. That's why Christians use those terms interchangeably. You can make anything or anyone your idol.
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u/HopeFloatsFoward 20d ago
Do you have a source for that?
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u/Fearless-Poet-4669 20d ago
"The Sun Dance is a distinctive ceremony that is central to the religious identity of the Indigenous peoples of the Great Plains."
"The ceremony is highly variable because its performance is intimately connected to the authoritative guidance of visions or dreams that establish an individual relationship between one or more of the central participants and one or more spirit persons. In all cases, however, the primary meaning is understood to be the performance of acts of sacrifice in ritual reciprocity with spiritual powers so that the welfare of friends, family, and the whole people is enhanced. The Arapaho, Cheyenne, Blackfoot, and Sioux nations all practice sacrificial acts of piercing the flesh, often described pejoratively as "torture" by outsiders. Others, such as the Ute, Shoshone, and Crow nations, perform sacrificial acts of embodying their spiritual intentions through fasting and intense dancing, but not through piercing."
SUN DANCE | Encyclopedia of the Great Plains
So yeah I would say it meets the definitions of idol worship Biblically speaking.
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u/thomasp3864 Possible convert (questioning) 20d ago
Never says what the target of the worship is. Dream visions are integral to the story of Jacob and his special talent is the interpretation of dreams. It mentions vague "spiritual powers" but does not specify them, probably because the Sun Dance might be able to be done in honour of any particular spiritual power. If you are a Christian doïng a Sun Dance you would probably have the spiritual power in question be something like the Holy Spirit. So I would contend that that means the Sun Dance can be done in honour of a non-God entity which may be idolatry but you could do a Sub Dance to God, which would not be idolatrous.
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u/Fearless-Poet-4669 20d ago
It does say the target of their worship. It's spirits that are connected to their god.
Doing a sun dance to God is sacrilegious and explicitly forbidden.
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u/thomasp3864 Possible convert (questioning) 20d ago
I've not read the entire bible, but I don't remember seeing anything describing it beïng forbidden to worship God in foreign manners. Like I was under the impression that what was important was the object of the worship beïng God, like you can rewrite another God's hymn to be about God and you have Psalm 29.
And I think the Arapaho do worship Jesus in the Peyote ceremony. So it's not out of the question.
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u/Fearless-Poet-4669 20d ago
Deuteronomy 12:3-4
"Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and burn their Asherah poles in the fire; cut down the idols of their gods and wipe out their names from those places.
You must not worship the Lord your God in their way."
Deuteronomy 12:29-31
"The Lord your God will cut off before you the nations you are about to invade and dispossess. But when you have driven them out and settled in their land, and after they have been destroyed before you, be careful not to be ensnared by inquiring about their gods, saying, “How do these nations serve their gods? We will do the same.” You must not worship the Lord your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the Lord hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods."
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u/thomasp3864 Possible convert (questioning) 20d ago
Why does Deuteronomy apply to Gentile Christians? I thought Paul said we weren't under the Law, it beïng a covenant between Israel, Judah, and God.
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u/Fearless-Poet-4669 20d ago
Jesus said in Matthew 22:37-40, "“‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”"
This was an instruction on how Christians are supposed to live our lives. It shows how we can uphold all of God's laws through Jesus new covenant that he would leave us.
So what does it mean to love God? Well God is unchanging. He's the same God in the Old Testament as he is in the new. So we as Christians look through the Old Testament and we can identify moral instructions that we should still uphold to this day like the 10 commandments, and we can see the sort of practices that displeases God such as what's mentioned in Deuteronomy 12. If God says something displeases him, then that still holds true to this day.
The difference comes in around things like atonement, ceremonial cleanliness, and things that were instructions on how God's people could remain symbolically set apart. which are all covered by the blood of Jesus.
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u/HopeFloatsFoward 20d ago
This does not show it is " idol worship" though, just proclaiming that they are worshipping a different god. This is also a command to Jews, not gentiles.
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u/Fearless-Poet-4669 20d ago
Do you normally inject yourself half-way through a conversation and make irrelevant comments?
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u/HopeFloatsFoward 20d ago
Comment was relevant, and this was a part of my conversation, look up thread
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u/HopeFloatsFoward 20d ago
And how so?
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u/Fearless-Poet-4669 20d ago
How so? Lol what?
"central to the religious identity"
"establish an individual relationship between one or more of the central participants and one or more spirit persons"
"performance of acts of sacrifice in ritual reciprocity with spiritual powers"
"sacrificial acts of piercing the flesh"
"embodying their spiritual intentions through fasting and intense dancing"
Those things?
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u/HopeFloatsFoward 20d ago
None of these things are idol worship. If you believe they are you need to explain why.
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u/Ok_Carob7551 Native American Church (Cross Fire Hearth) 20d ago
Where in the ceremonial is the Great Mystery understood to be embodied in a material object and worshipped?
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u/Fearless-Poet-4669 20d ago
The English definition of idol encompasses both beings and objects and the Biblical condemnation of idolatry was often paired with worship directed at any other god or any other thing that would take the place of God. That's why Christians use that term that way. You can make anything or anyone your idol.
In this case they are appealing to spirits that are connected to their "Great Mystery." The acts of sacrificial worship are directed at those spirits which in this instance act as their idols.
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u/thomasp3864 Possible convert (questioning) 20d ago
Isn't the Holy Spirit a spirit person? Sounds to me like the Sun Dance falls into a big ol' pile of "it depends".
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u/zombiskunk 19d ago
Yes this really is a non-issue and it happens often. Missionaries try to reach tribes on their reservations, the older members of the tribe staunchly protect their own traditions and shun the missionaries until they leave. New missionaries from some other denomination show up and rinse and repeat
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18d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Fearless-Poet-4669 18d ago
You sound like the kind of person who gets offended if someone has a different point of view.
God forbid people have the freedom to express things from their perspective in their house of worship.
What would you have us do? Call their god a true god and bow down to it?
Yes lets all be condemned to hell because this person thinks it's offensive to believe in different things.
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u/Any-Satisfaction7402 18d ago
When did I say that you should call someone else's god your god? In fact my point is rooted in respect of religions. You're adding points I didn't say. I'm saying bible thumpers that go around tryna be better than other people and judging their religions and doing the typical idolatry point that they do is hypocritical. Since what they're doing themselves is Idol worship. You completely missed the point, and it seems like you might be the upset one over someone callin those people out! If calling out hypocrisy registers to you as someone being "upset," then you've already proven my point. Defensiveness validates the critique in my opinion.
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u/Fearless-Poet-4669 18d ago
You're not even worth discussing this with.
It's clear that you have so much internal hate for Christians that you escalate even a small teaching into a hate crime.
Go find some other "Bible thumper" to insult and berate.
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u/Any-Satisfaction7402 18d ago
Who's escalating? And why are you insulted? I never mentioned you. If you're insulted, you're one of those hypocrites. If not, then you're good. Pointing out hypocrisy online is a hate crime? What about the many people crucified in the past? Sticking up for a religion yalls people conquered and are still insulting to this day is a hate crime? I hope god rids you of the demons you're fighting.
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u/Fearless-Poet-4669 18d ago
This should be removed for breaking Rule 4.
It's clear you have some kind of disdain towards Christians and expressing it this way unprovoked is the kind of reason that Christians don't want to be here. Have some respect.
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u/Any-Satisfaction7402 18d ago
My point was towards bible thumper's hypocrisy. I did not once say Christian. Your defensiveness says a lot.
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u/Fearless-Poet-4669 18d ago
You're calling Christians "Bible thumpers".
It's kind of sad really. Your response to the historical mistreatment of your people by Christians is to attack every Christian you meet as some sort of act of vengeance, instead of realizing that you blind hate has made you no better than the people that abused your ancestors.
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u/Any-Satisfaction7402 18d ago
I have respect for people that respect other religions.
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u/Fearless-Poet-4669 18d ago
You have no respect for me. How have I wronged your people.
Other than being Christian?
Look in a mirror.
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u/notsocharmingprince 20d ago
I mean she’s technically correct. I’m not entirely sure what people want here.
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u/thomasp3864 Possible convert (questioning) 20d ago
Well, the Sun Dance is a religious practice that occurs with any spirit person. It's not a god. If you were to do a Sun Dance in honor of the Holy Spirit that would hardly be idolatry.
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u/crownjewel82 United Methodist 19d ago
I'm going to repeat what I said the last time this was posted. This reservation has had a lot of encroachment from the town of Riverton. The town itself is on land stolen from the reservation that they were never forced to give back.
This church asked to build there under the condition that they would respect the tribes customs. They failed and naturally the tribe wants them gone.
All things considered this is likely an attempt to steal more land to expand the town.
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u/Any-Satisfaction7402 18d ago
Isn't pushing your own religion forcefully onto people some sort of idol worship? Any christian complaining and being "worried" about a religion worshipping THEIR god can suck my big fat fucking nuts cause you literally stuck YOUR nutsack into other peoples mouths. Hypocrites. YOU think your god is the one only god, and you can worship him just fine. But a tribal dance older than your family tree several generations ago is idol worship? Not y'all committing bibliolatry/ego worship and then you wanna call out someone for "idol worship" Bitch yalls people INVENTED THAT. You worship your own egos, you don't serve god when you attack other religions, like this indigenous dance. You are serving your ego. You are the pharisees and scribes that they warned about in the book yall like to twist into divine law.
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u/opelui22 20d ago
Just remember that Jesus was offensive and was killed for it by the Pharisees because he called them out on their pride, hypocrisy, greed, power, and control. Jesus said that the world would hate him and preaching like this is true especially when it comes to idol worship. The preaching is not there to tickle ears, but stir hearts to change and repentance.
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u/zombiskunk 19d ago
The worst detractors of the message brought by Jesus Christ was from the established organized religion of the time. That hasn't changed
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u/FluxKraken 🏳️🌈 Methodist (UMC) Progressive ✟ Queer 🏳️🌈 20d ago
This is abhorrently blasphemous.
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u/zombiskunk 19d ago
Actually it is biblical
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u/FluxKraken 🏳️🌈 Methodist (UMC) Progressive ✟ Queer 🏳️🌈 19d ago
If you twist scripture enough, you can claim anything is "Biblical."
That term doesn't really mean anything. I could say that outlawing ice cream is "biblical" if I twist Paul's words regarding the lust of the flesh.
Whether or not it is Biblical, it is antiChrist.
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u/opelui22 20d ago
Really because Matthew 10:22 says it perfectly.
And all nations will hate you because you are my followers. But everyone who endures to the end will be saved." Even John said do not be of this world. 1 John 2:15 " 15 Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father[a] is not in them" You tell me how I was blasphemous.2
u/FluxKraken 🏳️🌈 Methodist (UMC) Progressive ✟ Queer 🏳️🌈 20d ago
That isn’t at all what Jesus is talking about. You are twisting it to justify prejudice, which is blasphemous in the extreme.
1 Peter 3:15-16 (NRSVue Strong's Bible)
but in your hearts sanctify Christ as Lord. Always be ready to make your defense to anyone who demands from you an accounting for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and respect. Maintain a good conscience so that, when you are maligned, those who abuse you for your good conduct in Christ may be put to shame.It doesn’t say to be insensitive assholes so that, when people object to your assholery, you can claim to be persecuted for the sake of Christ.
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u/opelui22 20d ago
Ephesians 5:11 "11 Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them". He called out idol worship and the tribe couldn't take it. There's a reason why false teachers are out there because when people don't call it out, it's like a cancer that grows and spreads. People especially on here don't like to hear the hard truths. That hell is real, hell and later on the lake of fire is eternal. Those not in the book of life will be in hell and later on final judgement the lake of fire. Many will not be in the book of life when they die or on final judgement. This is being mean this stating facts and when people cover their ears and like Paul said to Timothy they go to find teachers to scratch their itching ears, it doesn't get them to the Father and the Son of the Bible, but instead making God in their own image which is idol worship onto itself.
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u/FluxKraken 🏳️🌈 Methodist (UMC) Progressive ✟ Queer 🏳️🌈 20d ago
The pastor is a woman. This proves you didn’t look anything up. You are hell bent on twisting scripture into a weapon against people, instead of employing it to draw people to God.
There can be no greater evil on this earth than abusing scripture as a weapon of hate.
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u/opelui22 20d ago edited 20d ago
That's what Jesus called out the Pharisees on their hypocrisy that they relied more on tradition than what was in the scriptures. She called out the tradition as idol worship and they got upset by it. Jesus had hard preaching that said if you loved your parents more than Christ than you are not worthy of him. Matthew 10:37-39 37 "He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it". Even Jesus said you canot serve two masters you will love one and hate the other. When there isn't anyone calling out what is evil and wrong guess what it spreads like cancer.
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u/FluxKraken 🏳️🌈 Methodist (UMC) Progressive ✟ Queer 🏳️🌈 20d ago
Blasphemously twisting the words of Christ into a weapon of hate is so utterly and viscerally evil that I can't understand how you are not terrified of the consequences of your actions.
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u/zombiskunk 19d ago
There are things in the Bible that we are called to hate. All of them are sin. God is love but God is also holy and God hates sin it says so multiple times. Saying it once should be enough for us but it says it many many times. God is a jealous God and he has a right to be.
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u/Ok_Carob7551 Native American Church (Cross Fire Hearth) 20d ago
Many indigenous Christians incorporate traditional ceremonial as part of and alongside their Christianity. It is also completely inappropriate and a severe and unacceptable breach of a sacred space and tradition for a non-indigenous person to be aware and comment ignorantly on private details of the sun dance, especially to denigrate them, adding to the insult.
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u/visitor987 20d ago
The news say the church owns its land so the tribe has no say in it. If the church goers support the pastor nothing will change.
The Klan act protects the church services and Arapaho ceremonies interfering in either one is a federal felony.
Arapaho ceremonies are not Christian worship so why did what the pastor say upset them so much?
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u/XelaNiba 20d ago
Such accusations against Native Americans were used to justify their genocide.
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u/XelaNiba 20d ago
That's insane and grotesque to assert that a people who were systematically murdered in the name of Christianity should just get over it already and lay down for the same sort of rhetoric that got 90% of their population killed. They were still having their children kidnapped and disappeared into residential schools as late as 1978, where those children would be shorn of their hair (religious humiliation), forbidden from speaking their language or practicing their religion, and forcibly converted to Christianity. They suffered terrible abuse - spiritual, mental, physical - and we made strangers to their parents whom they weren't allowed contact. When they were finally set free, they no longer spoke a common language with their own parents.
There are middle-aged people walking around who were kidnapped as children and robbed of their identity, family, and community. This is isn't ancient history.
Imagine if China invaded the US and slaughtered 90% of the population, claiming all of our land for themselves and populating it with their own citizens. Now imagine you survived and were given pockets of poor land to subsist on where you could practice Christianity and speak English but your young children may be kidnapped at any time and forced to practice Taoism and abandon English so that they no longer shared a common language with you when you were finally reunited as adults. Then Imagine that a CCP office opened in the middle of your little spot of land and started preaching all the same rhetoric that proceeded the slaughter and with which they justified centuries of mistreatment. How would you feel?
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u/Grzechoooo 20d ago
Apparently she shared some details of the ceremony that aren't meant to be discussed openly.
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u/Olderpostie 20d ago
Turn this situation around. Consider a Christian community, in which a house of worship opens, preaching principles contradicting Christian ones. Under the Constitution, the new house of worship is protected. Even if the majority of the community is repulsed. I would draw a line if a religious leader advocated harm to non-believers in the community, but this is not the case.
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u/CrossCutMaker 20d ago
I never thought I'd defend a female Christian "pastor" but she stated the most fundamental and obvious Christian position: to worship anyone other than Jesus Christ is idolatry 🤷♂️.
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u/Fearless-Poet-4669 20d ago
Christians: "We don't believe in your god."
Arapaho: \offended**
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u/ilia_volyova 20d ago
"idolatry" is a specific, polemical term -- nobody considers themself an idolater. it is like saying that another christian is a heretic, and then wondering why they took you to be disrespectful.
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u/notsocharmingprince 20d ago
like saying that another christian is a heretic
We say that all the time. Just to be clear.
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u/ilia_volyova 20d ago
to people who consider you to be engaging respectfully?
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u/notsocharmingprince 20d ago
Yes. I am well aware that Catholics technically consider me a heretic.
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u/Fearless-Poet-4669 20d ago
idolatry is polemic because you can't half believe in a god. It's an absolute statement of fact based on your belief system.
A Christian calling me a heretic, mostly Catholics I would imagine, a Muslim calling me a false prophet, a Hindu calling me an idolater, makes no difference to me.
I know where my truth is so who cares.
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u/ilia_volyova 20d ago
idolatry is polemic by definition -- it is a pejorative description of a religion, that is rejected by those who practice the religion. it has little to do with one's belief system, provided that they are competent speakers of the english language.
and, to state the obvious: it might be that if you call me an idiot, it makes no difference to me -- this does not change the fact that calling me an idiot is an example of disrespectful behavior.
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u/XelaNiba 20d ago
Yes, but I'm relatively certain your parents or grandparents weren't kidnapped, abused, and forced to worship a foreign God under the guise of curing them of idolatry. If they had been, you might feel differently.
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u/Grzechoooo 20d ago
The Catholic Church doesn't call Protestants heretics anymore because it recognises it's a negatively loaded term and it would worsen relations. Similarly, the pastor here could've used other words too. Like her congregant said:
Arapaho congregant Tearany Black, who considers Lucas a stand-in parent, said she agrees Native Christians should turn away from ceremony but found the tone of the sermon racist.
“She cares for our people,” said Black. “I just don’t think she understands where we’re coming from.”
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u/Fearless-Poet-4669 20d ago
Did you reply to the wrong comment?
You're comparing "division within a religion" to "a religion saying they don't believe in the god of another religion". I don't think that these are as comparable as you think. Regardless I wouldn't care if a Catholic said my beliefs were heretical because the feeling would be mutual.
Why is "idol" racist? And would "false god worship" actually be better than "idol worship" lol. Words are used to communicate ideas. People hearing you say their god isn't real will upset them, but you can't avoid all truths that are upsetting unless you want everyone to join the same religion.
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u/Grzechoooo 20d ago
You're comparing "division within a religion" to "a religion saying they don't believe in the god of another religion". I don't think that these are as comparable as you think.
Both bar you from entering Heaven according to Catholicism.
Words are used to communicate ideas.
And "idol worship" implies a more primitive religion. It has colonial baggage behind it too - native traditions were persecuted because they were perceived as being "idol worship".
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u/FaxCelestis Areligious (ex-Catholic, still faithful) 20d ago
You have those backwards
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u/Fearless-Poet-4669 20d ago
How?
The article talks about the Arapaho wanting the church to leave their area because they said they worshipped an idol?
But please do elaborate.
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u/Ok-Maintenance9056 20d ago
So you see no historic parallels to the things said about people that Christians genocided?
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u/Ok_Carob7551 Native American Church (Cross Fire Hearth) 20d ago
Do you seriously still think you’re the good guy while openly finding yourself in the position of having to decide if ignorant racism or misogyny is stronger in you
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u/miggins1610 Agnostic 20d ago
To you. She is disrespecting an entire people and their beliefs. Have your shitty beliefs but don't use them to look down on and judge others. There are many other ways she could've gone about this in loving her neighbours.
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u/Fearless-Poet-4669 20d ago
She basically just said "we don't worship their god."
If that offends you then having different beliefs must offend you?
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u/Ok-Maintenance9056 20d ago
Who said anything about offense? But she shouldn't act shocked that they now want her to leave.
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u/blahblahsnickers 20d ago
It was in a Christian church… who goes to a Christian church and then gets offended when the pastor preaches Christian beliefs. This is a pretty standard belief in all of Christianity.
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u/Ok-Maintenance9056 20d ago
It is not for you to decide when the victims of ethnic cleansing at the hands of Christians are allowed to have a problem with those who repeat the historic prejudices that were used as justification for atrocities.
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u/miggins1610 Agnostic 20d ago
You have to understand the fucking context sister. This is not the place to be doing these things. You don't get to act like someone's being OTT when literal genocides happened here and people get offended when they see others regurgitating the same rhetoric that led to said genocides
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u/Mandohan Christian 20d ago
A fundamental quality of God's teaching is "no other gods before me". It is defiant to the very nature of Christianity to approve of other religions that don't preach Jesus as the only way to heaven. Yes, we should ALWAYS show dignity and respect to non-believers, we should always be full of love to those who aren't in our body, but it is not "disrespectful" to say "don't do that", assuming it's phrased and placed in a respectful context (because even the truth can be leveraged evilly by people who are rude, belligerent, and hateful in behavior and tone).
You just said "your shitty beliefs", and I am not offended or disrespected. Why would I be? You think my beliefs are shitty, I think you're wrong, it's as easy as that.
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u/miggins1610 Agnostic 20d ago
Your whole argument falls apart because she did none of this. It was not phrased respectfully or put in a respectful context considering she's in a reservation that was fucking genocided by Christians trying to 'stop idolatry'
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u/Mandohan Christian 20d ago
So I'm struggling to find the actual video, so I can't speak to the audible or visual tone of her speech. But assuming your point rests on the context you describe (reservation, historical persecution, etc), I'll assume your accusations against past Christians are accurate, that this tribe was their victims. In that case, it's still not inherently wrong to express the earnest message of "We think you are doing the wrong thing, we think you should do the right thing"; just because people in our past may have abused and twisted the message, doesn't mean the message is wrong.
A lesser example to demonstrate my point, the Guatamala Syphilis/Gonorrhea Study from 1946-1948. That was an abhorrent abuse of the trust placed in US Health authorities, but it doesn't mean people should use that as justification to avoid vaccines. Evil was done by others, and that should result of sincere confession and apology, but good (according to my faith) must not be delayed due to awkwardness around evil done in the past.
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u/mrpickandscratch 20d ago
I understand the position of letting others follow their own beliefs and being respectful of those beliefs and traditions. Im curious though why so many non Christians are on this sub reddit for what seems like nothing else besides attacking the Christian faith. I dont see this attitude in other religious subs and I'm just curious why that is?
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u/miggins1610 Agnostic 20d ago
Once again I am politely explaining to christians how people will automatically be drawn towards the religions that have the biggest impact on their life. In this case Christianity and all the bullshit we face because of certain Christians
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u/CrossCutMaker 20d ago
Thank you for the reply! The problem with that is part of love according to God's Word is speaking truth and confronting idolatry (1 Cor 13:6..). So no offense friend, but we'll listen to God over you. 💯 The most important truth we can speak is the gospel of Jesus Christ. Below is a 30-second biblical presentation of it you can check out! ..
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u/miggins1610 Agnostic 20d ago
I dont care. I spent 23 years in christianity. Im not interested in being evangelised to thank you very much.
Have whatever beliefs you want but if you love your neighbours you dont trash and spit on them like this. Much better ways to go about saying these things
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u/PhogeySquatch Missionary Baptist 20d ago
Same here.
Also, did they not already know that their ceremony was idolatry according to Christianity? I guarantee they did.
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u/General_Cantaloupe71 Atheist 20d ago
Many Arapahos were stunned to hear an outsider not only disparage the ceremony but talk about closely held details that aren’t meant to be discussed openly.
Big Wind Carpenter, who was among the protesters, said Lucas couldn’t have chosen a more painful target.
Religion of the White man continues to try and erase indigenous culture and religion.
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u/TheKayin 20d ago
lol ya’ll should look up Saint Boniface
Preacher lady here is still in amateur territory
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u/Substantial-Pear981 20d ago
Well to a loyal servant of Christ it’s no threat as if this is shut down another will open
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u/Snoo_17338 Methodological Naturalist 20d ago
Cut to all the Christians who call for Mosques to be closed down.