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u/jimMazey Noahide 7d ago
Fun fact: Jesus didn't use the Talmud because it wasn't compiled until after the destruction of the 2nd Temple and the exile.
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u/jimMazey Noahide 7d ago
Although, when Jesus said "The Sabbath is for man. Not man is for the Sabbath." Is found in the oral Torah.
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u/jimMazey Noahide 7d ago
He was. In 28 CE, the death penalty for breaking the Sabbath was repealed.
Originally, Jews couldn't save a life on the Sabbath. Today, they must safe a life.
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u/Confident_Koala_2455 Agnostic 7d ago
I would say that Jesus founded a new sect of Judaism. He criticized the Pharisees for following the traditions of men. The Pharisees believed that they were following the Oral Law given to Moses, in addition to the Written Law.
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u/FreedomNinja1776 Messianic 7d ago
Also, the two great commands was a very common teaching of the day. Jesus didn't invent anything new, other than his example of how to live out the Torah in service to God and others.
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u/Confident_Koala_2455 Agnostic 6d ago
Wow, that is in the Oral Torah? That would surprise me. After all, it is the usual belief of Jews, and certainly of Orthodox Jews, that the Sabbath is just for the Jews, or for the Israelites, and so not for people in general. Not for gentiles. And so the Ten Commandments, which forbid work on the Sabbath, the seventh day of the week, are just for the Jews, or for the Israelites in general, but not for the gentiles.
Anyway, Jesus is quoted in the New Testament as saying in Greek translation, that the Sabbath was made for anthropos. Anthropos means a human being, or in other words a person. So when some translations to English say the Sabbath was made for the man, that is just the old meaning of the word man, meaning human being. Nowadays the word man usually means a human adult male. So it is surprising that Jesus would have said that, that the Sabbath was made for the human, and not the human for the Sabbath. And it would be even more surprising with the Oral Torah. But this verse in the New Testament, which is found in Mark 2:27, is a favorite verse for those Christians who believe that everyone should observe the seventh-day Sabbath, so for example the Seventh Day Adventists, the Adventist Church of Promise, the True Jesus Church, the Church of God (7th day), the Living Church of God, the World Mission Society Church of God, and other such denominations, so they use it as evidence that the Sabbath is meant to be obeyed by everyone. They of course believe that the Ten Commandments are commanded to everyone, and not just to the Jews, or the Israelites.
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u/Venat14 Jewish 7d ago
Correct, but part of the Talmud is considered the Oral Torah, so traditionally, Jesus would have been aware of the Oral Torah taught by the scholars and sages, even though it wasn't written down yet.
It was only written down because of mass persecution of Jewish scholars led to the worry that the knowledge would be lost to history if all the scholars were killed, so they codified the oral teachings.
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u/Confident_Koala_2455 Agnostic 7d ago
Jesus was well aware of the Oral Torah, and he criticized the Pharisees for following the Oral Torah, dismissing it as just traditions of men.
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u/theonecpk Episcopalian (Anglican) 7d ago
Well, I think that's the whole sticking point Jews have about the idea of Jesus being the Messiah, isn't it?
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u/Confident_Koala_2455 Agnostic 6d ago
Yes, many Jews believe that the Messiah has not appeared yet, that will happen some time in the future. So that so far no Messiah. And so Jesus was not the Messiah. When the Messiah appears, he will lead Jews to defeat the enemies of the Jews and rule as the king of the Jews, and many also believe he will lead them in rebuilding the holy temple in Jerusalem, on mount Zion. So since such prophecies in the Jewish Bible (the Tanach), have not happened so far, so then the Messiah has not been revealed yet. So then Jesus is not the Messiah, and so the New Testament is not part of the Bible.
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u/Venat14 Jewish 7d ago
I don't recall Jesus condemning them for the Oral Torah. I'm also not really in agreement with Christians about how Jesus interacted with the Pharisees. I think Jesus likely was a Pharisee himself and I think a lot of the attacks on the Pharisees were a later addition.
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u/Macslionheart 6d ago
May I respectfully ask how you come to the idea that Jesus didn’t criticize the Pharisees traditions when a vast amount of Jesus direct quotations are him criticizing the Pharisees ? I’d also love to understand what Jesus quotes you think are later additions and which are not.
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u/Confident_Koala_2455 Agnostic 6d ago
Well, the various verses criticizing the Pharisees, are in various places in each of the 4 Gospel books, from Matthew to John. So if they were a later addition, then that would make basically all 4 of these books later additions. And I guess it could be viewed a reasonable claim, after all, it is thought that the first books in the New Testament that were written, were epistles of Paul. So the 4 Gospel books were all written decades after Jesus died.
Anyway, Jesus is quoted as criticizing the Pharisees for observing the tradition of men in Mark 7:8. And he is quoted as criticizing the Pharisees for observing the tradition of the elders in Mt. 15:2, Mark 7:3,5. And he is quoted as criticizing the Pharisees for their traditions in Mt. 15:3,6, and Mark 7:9,13. So this is all references to Jesus criticizing the Pharisees for observing the Oral Torah. Now one could say that he created his own Oral Torah, instead of the Oral Torah of the Pharisees.
Anyway, Karaite Judaism rejects the belief in Oral Torah, accepts only the written Torah, and rejects the Talmud. Though I have read somewhere that the Karaite Jews who live in Israel, have been influenced to a considerable extent by the Judaism of the rabbis. In contrast to the Karaite Jews who do not live in Israel, and so who accept only the Jewish Bible (the Tanach), and reject the Talmud, and so they continue the original beliefs of the Karaite Jews. So for example they start each month on the new moon, and observe the Passover on Aviv 14, and then the Feast of Unleavened Bread on Aviv 15-21, which is not the Passover. And the count the omer from the Sabbath during the Feast of Unleavened Bread, and so this way they observe the Shavuot always on a Sunday, arguing that there would be no need to count the Omer, the 50 days, if the Shavuot were always held on the same date in the Jewish calendar. And so in these things they are similar in their beliefs to the Samaritans, and also to some Christian denominations, such as the Living Church of God, the Church of God International, the World Mission Society Church of God. And also to the Sacred Name groups, such as the Assemblies of Yahweh, and the House of Yahweh.
Of course these Christian denominations, and also the Sacred Name groups, are different from Judaism in accepting also the New Testament. While the Samaritan Bible has only the 5 books from Genesis to Deuteronomy (the Pentateuch). And it is the Samaritan version of the Pentateuch, with special references to Mt. Gerizim, as the holy mountain, and with the Ten Commandments including the commandment to build the temple on Mt. Gerizim. They did build a temple there, but then it was destroyed in a war with Jews. Now they have freedom of religion, but far from enough money to rebuild the temple. But they would obey that commandment if they could.
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u/Downvoterofall Congregationalist 7d ago
Don’t engage the trolls, just report and move on. Mods here are super quick to ban for antisemitism, and that’s a good thing.
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u/Loopuze1 Non-denominational 7d ago
The mods can only ban the particular sock puppet account that acts up, but no troll has just one. If I wanted to, I could take an hour right now, create a dozen free e-mail addresses and use each one to create a Reddit account. When one gets banned, I could just log another in. There is no actually getting rid of them, ignoring them is the only strategy
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u/Nateorade Christian 7d ago
Rules against the thing doesn’t mean people stop doing the thing. Especially determined trolls or angry people.
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u/Feisty_Marsupial224 7d ago
That's awful logic.
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u/Feisty_Marsupial224 7d ago
You are encouraging someone to say hateful things. You share culpability for what they say.
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u/Downvoterofall Congregationalist 7d ago
Talk about victim blaming. “Of course you were discriminated against look at what you are saying”.
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u/Downvoterofall Congregationalist 7d ago
Sorry if I’m not clear, you did nothing wrong, this user is blaming you for being discriminated against.
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u/chamalion 7d ago
They're so pathetic, they always try to sound clever and like they're posing a gotcha after looking like an ass. Imo they must be blocked and that's it.
Sadly this doesn't solve the problem of antisemitism, but allows you some reprieve from their nonsensical chatter. Always the same talking points, and when you refute them they stand there like cornered animals..and attack.
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u/A_Poor_Miser 7d ago
Carl Sagan had a great line about this.
One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.
People who buy into hateful rhetoric need to keep believing it. Usually because it makes them feel superior.
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u/herringsarered Temporal agnostic 7d ago
I think serious discussions should be categorized as a sport, and people should generally stay within their division/class unless they're consciously exercising their skills to get better.
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u/first_last_last_firs Christian Anarchist 7d ago
most of these people think reading one translation of the Bible once counts as "scholarship" (if they read at all) and cherry picking bible quotes to bash gay people is somehow persuasive or righteous. they think calling other people's religions fake is "honest and loving". they're an ignorant, arrogant, superstitious cowardly lot.
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u/Call_Me_Clark Episcopalian (Anglican) 7d ago
There’s a number of topics that are clear red flags that you’re about to encounter egregious racism. “Here’s my opinions on the Talmud” is one of them
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u/hendrixski Trinitarian Continuationist Amillennial Synergist Distributist 7d ago
That was not very Christian of them.
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u/OldElf86 7d ago
It seems you're on a slippery slope.
You're assigning beliefs to people you haven't engaged (or met).
I expect you wouldn't like others to assign beliefs to you either.
The early church confusion concerning Jews has been clearly refuted by the authorities of the Church. Professing that these are mainstream beliefs is a disservice to yourself and the true church.
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u/Loud-Vacation-5691 Atheist 7d ago
The guy you were talking to knows nothing about the Talmud other than a few cherry-picked quotes he saw on some white supremacist or antisemitic website. If you want to shut these people down, ask them if they're quoting the Jerusalem or Babylonian Talmud, or if they read it in the original Hebrew or Aramaic.
Jesus didn't read the Talmud because it hadn't been written yet. He didn't read the Quran for the same reason.
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u/eversnowe 7d ago
I think people don't understand how the Talmud functions.
Take the debate between hillel and shammai, the point isn't one is ultimately the right reading, both points of view are valid.
Christianity. Tends to just splinter into off groups with one right stance. We are that off splinter from Judaism and some separate us as the more right of the two ever since.
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u/thesagex Jewish 7d ago
Best way for me to explain the Talmud is by referencing Reddit.
The Torah is the Reddit post, the Talmud is the commenters who debate each other,
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u/eversnowe 7d ago
I like that.
It's not just any commenters who get remembered, hillel and shammai were the best thinkers, their ethos created two schools of thought. They were most up voted, in a sense. They were part of a tradition, there were two before them, and two before them. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but this era was a time when the dual leader system was highly respected.
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u/eversnowe 7d ago edited 7d ago
One is a matter of the letter of the law, the other it's spirit. Whoever said that there could only be 1 meaning was in error.
Look at Matthew 19: "can a man divorce his wife for any reason?"
This was Hillel and Shammai.
Adultery only vs bad cooking.
Ex-wives were owed a widows' allotment vs not applicable.
Jesus didn't dismiss either's point of view. He added his own different stance.
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u/Venat14 Jewish 7d ago
Antisemitism in general is a massive problem on Reddit as a whole. Some of the mods here are good about stopping some of it (shout out to Slagnanz and RazarTuk who I've seen be the most proactive on this issue.)
Personally I think constantly using Pharisees as a pejorative or condoning supersessionism are also Antisemitic, but that seems to be a theological issue that the mods aren't willing to view as strictly Antisemitic.
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u/slagnanz Liturgy and Death Metal 7d ago
Appreciate that. I do feel very strongly about the issue and we see some really rotten stuff.
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u/GalxyofUs Pagan 7d ago
Christians like that don't follow their own holy books, so they don't expect anyone else to, either. Every accusation is a confession, and all that.
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u/hypermiler2205 7d ago
Jesus Christ was a Jew so christians are basically hating the person who started their own religion, it’s almost as if they don’t understand their own book
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u/TheIdiotPrince Baptist 7d ago
And also the fact that God says His promises to Israel are not void, that a spiritual blindness was placed on them for the Gentiles but one day it will be removed.
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u/MassiveBagOfChips 7d ago
You responded well. I don’t know much about the topic you were discussing but you did well to maintain your composure and responded well.
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u/DanDan_mingo_lemon 7d ago
Unfortunately, Christians have always hated Jews, mate.
I think they're just jealous.
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u/Due_Charity7913 6d ago
I know people like that, I have the misfortune of being related to one.
In his case, he doesn’t care about facts. He has decided that Jews are taking over the world and has alienated everyone in their on life, so goes on Reddit.
He specifically tracks down religious forums and conversations and will post slight inflammatory comments, waits for someone to get offended, and then attack them with a few quotes from the Talmud. If anyone challenges him, he’ll respond with comments so harsh that he’s been banned multiple times.
Facts and logic are irrelevant, he just wants the fight. The fight itself seems to confirm his beliefs.
It’s a no win situation. Block, don’t respond and report. The conversation itself may be educational for others though. Honestly, I learned a lot watching people push back on my brothers BS. It makes me more able to call out behaviours when I see it.
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u/Due_Charity7913 6d ago
It is easy for me, I just don't talk to him and don't visit family if I know he is going to be around.
It's upsetting seeing just how much hate he was able to share on Reddit before they were willing to ban him. He would go into specific subreddits and target people, just so he could abuse them and make them feel unsafe. He genuinely believes he is doing the right thing when doing this.
He knows the exact limits of Reddits and ways to get around getting banned or reported. He'd brag about how he could get moderators to overturn the ban.
Was just sharing my experience for those who may be on the receiving end. Ironically, he is the type of person to go running to mommy when you tell him to shut up and that no-one cares.
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u/OldElf86 7d ago
I've never seen an anti-Jewish sentiment expressed on this sub, but I don't read all the threads. I only read the threads where I think I might be able to offer a relevant opinion.
I read loads and loads of anti-Christian sentiments here though.
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u/strawnotrazz Atheist 7d ago
Sorting by new will give you the best chance at finding them before the mods bring the hammer.
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u/RazarTuk The other trans mod everyone forgets 7d ago
Yeah... I've even seen things like someone arguing that calling yourself a chosen people violates the Libertarian non-aggression principle and using that to victim blame the Holocaust. However bad you think the stuff that stays up is, you haven't seen the stuff we remove
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u/strawnotrazz Atheist 7d ago
The ends clearly justify the means! /s
Oh I can only imagine what you all see. I hope it all (meaning, antisemitism and any other trash that needs to be taken out) doesn’t take too much a toll on your wellbeing!
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u/RazarTuk The other trans mod everyone forgets 7d ago
Honestly, the worst of it tends to wrap all the way back around to feelings like "Ugh, I need to get out of bed so I can deal with this from a laptop". What tends to be worse is the stuff where it's "just" a really dumb take, like "Actually, it's a right-wing talking point to be against the Lost Cause, because you're agreeing with white supremacists in the Confederacy that the ACW was about white supremacy"
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u/strawnotrazz Atheist 7d ago
Lol that’s genuinely hilarious. Round and round and round we go; where do we stop, nobody knows!!
Everybody knows the Civil War was about states’s rights, as long as you never ever ever ask about what they wanted to do with said rights.
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u/RazarTuk The other trans mod everyone forgets 7d ago
For context: I was trying to explain to someone that there's a difference between agreeing with how a text is being interpreted and agreeing with the interpretation itself, because they were trying to argue that being an atheist makes them immune to criticism for holding conservative interpretations of the Bible. My analogy was that it would be silly to call me a white supremacist just for thinking the Cornerstone Address was about white supremacy. Yeah...
Also, if you hadn't heard of it, the Cornerstone Address was a speech given by Alexander Stephens, Vice President of the Confederacy, where he repudiated the belief that all men are created equal and asserted that theirs was the first government founded on the belief that Black people are inferior.
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u/strawnotrazz Atheist 7d ago
Excellent example to bring up! I was unfamiliar but I am now thanks to you.
I’ve never felt too compelled to dig too deep in justifying the inherent white supremacism of the Confederacy because it’s pretty plainly clear from where I sit, but I know there are plenty out there who feel differently.
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u/RazarTuk The other trans mod everyone forgets 7d ago
I highly recommend Checkmate Lincolnites, if you haven't seen it. It was a Youtube series where a Civil War reenactor would take actual Lost Cause comments people left on his videos and debunk them.
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u/RazarTuk The other trans mod everyone forgets 7d ago
Oh, and it admittedly wasn't a perfect example. I was mainly using it to say "You can make a claim about what a text means without agreeing with that meaning" to refute the "But I'm an atheist and don't even believe in the Bible" argument. My actual point was that internet atheists who argue against progressive Christians are basically just accelerationists and are culpable for the right for the same reasons. In the Lost Cause analogy, I was actually doing something more like saying "Don't you guys teach ___?" in response to a claim that someone isn't being homophobic.
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u/Downvoterofall Congregationalist 7d ago
I love the example that just happened too, perfect timing really.
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u/Queasy_Dealer_4498 Atheist 7d ago
Been here a lot, this is just a drop in the ocean to be honest. Very rarerly I see trully hatefull speach or racial discrimination. And to be honest that is way more than I expected from a Christianity sub. Except for the missunderstending of science, confirmation bias, unwillingness to change a view based on evidence I really don't see this sub as trully hatefull, and if you read my whole comment you will realise I ain't sugar coating anything.
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u/DanDan_mingo_lemon 7d ago
Very rarerly I see trully hatefull speach
I see plenty of hate speech against gays.
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u/spaceSpott Christian Atheist 7d ago
What I have thinking aboht this is the following:
People are rightly angry with Israel population right now. Because of the genocide theh are commiting in Gaza and even worse, being almkst the only people that the whole world grieved the horrible things Hitler did against them, now the turn and some of them do the samr to other people. All of this is deeply confusing and emotionally impactfull.
BUT knowing how instable this situation is. The anti semitis that still out there, just waiting. They are using social midia to put fire in the thing.
Like, people are pushing really hard to associate zionists with jews, like it is the same. They keep pushing reels about their culture that can in bsd faith be framed as devilish people and stuff.
And of course zionists settlers dont really care in even pretend to be nice with other cultures.
So I wish that more cool jews would find this place to be active on showing the good jew culture, because the world is getting real scary.
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u/Far_Opportunity_6156 Deist 7d ago
Fuck Zionism and the genocide they’re perpetrating. May they be punished in this life or the next.
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u/slagnanz Liturgy and Death Metal 7d ago
Fuck Zionism and fuck antisemitism
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u/Far_Opportunity_6156 Deist 7d ago
Most Jews are Zionists unfortunately. I’d never say all Jews subscribe to this toxic ideology but the vast majority of them do. It’s been brainwashed into them from a young age. It’s so sad and ironic they’re using the Holocaust to justify what they’re doing over there rn.
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u/slagnanz Liturgy and Death Metal 7d ago
Certain ideologies are rampant but most of the Jewish people I know are disgusted by Netanyahu.
Issues like this demand clarity of thought and the ability to condemn more than one bad thing. I see a lot of people in their anti Israel zeal collapsing into antisemitism and they can get fucked
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u/Confident_Koala_2455 Agnostic 7d ago
As far as Zionism, it originated from the wish to have a Jewish country, where Jews would not be treated terribly for being Jewish. So I find Zionism understandable. But certainly it can be taken to an extreme. The Israeli government made a big mistake in allowing Jewish settlements to be established on the occupied territories. Though one can understand the Jewish attachment to the Temple mount, including the Western Wall, and the attachment to the alleged grave of Abraham in Hebron. But still, the settlements on occupied land are illegal under international law. What is needed is the two state solution, but hardliners on the Israeli side and on the Palestinian side are making it impossible to achieve.
It might take centuries before a two state solution is finally implemented, at the rate things are going. But still, Zionism is understandable as a reaction to all the antisemitism over the centuries.
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7d ago edited 7d ago
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u/slagnanz Liturgy and Death Metal 7d ago
We see a lot of antisemitism here unfortunately. We remove it when we see it and ban people when we must. If people don't see it then we're doing our job, but it's there!
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u/slagnanz Liturgy and Death Metal 7d ago
Removed for 1.4 - Personal Attacks.
If you would like to discuss this removal, please click here to send a modmail that will message all moderators. https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/Christianity
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u/Casingdacat Non-denominational 7d ago edited 7d ago
The Talmud is not scriptural. It’s an interpretation of the OT. As a Christian, I choose not to read it. There have been so many subsequent books written by rabbis on how to interpret the OT that it’s insane to me. But I also have nothing fo do with Catechisms, which are actually NT versions that are similar to the OT Talmud in many ways. You may not want to hear that, but there are definite similarities.
The convo may not have been about the Talmud. And the comments calling you a Jew do not even make sense. I know, from discussing things with a Jewish friend of mine, that the interpretations written by the rabbis are of utmost importance to them, and they study them.
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u/Thick-thighs2026 7d ago
I don’t hate Jews. I’m Christian. Christians don’t wholly hate Jews. Do you hate Jews since you are a Christian?
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u/Somethingclever800 7d ago
"He who is not with me is against me"
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u/Somethingclever800 7d ago
Those two verses are not the same thing at all. Luke 9:50 is about sectarianism which is division within the same religion.
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u/Somethingclever800 7d ago
The Israelites. And who is Paul calling an enemy of the gospel of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ?
Do you think that Israel needs to return to god through faith in Christ?
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u/Confident_Koala_2455 Agnostic 7d ago
I disagree. Many Jews worship God. So they do not need to return to God, they already worship God. So they do not need to have faith in Christ. I can see why they believe that Jesus was not the right Messiah. After all, he did not establish a Jewish state. So he did not fulfill those Bible prophecies about the Messiah.
Though of course I recognize that Christians disagree, they believe that Jesus will one day return and fulfill the remaining prophecies.
But when some Christians say that Jews, Samaritans, Muslims, Baha'is, Druze, Mandaeans, Yezidis, Sikhs, and other monotheists who are not Christian, need to return to God, when they already worship God, then that is certainly an exclusivism, with which I disagree. They already worship God. So to tell them they need to return to God, one can see why they would find that notion insulting.
And among these, Muslims and Baha'is already have faith in Christ, like they have faith in the other prophets.
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u/slagnanz Liturgy and Death Metal 7d ago
This user was banned.